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Old 01-23-2013, 02:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnySic
The demise of Greg Oden and Yao really set the center position back.
sarcasm?
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by boozehound
nope. Maybe if you looked around the league you would see the importance of players like the gasols, chandler, noah, drummond, etc. Sure, certain teams with the best 10 or so players in the league can get away with it, but look at the heat. Not playing a true center has killed them on the boards.

thats because bosh is a ***** that will grab 1 rebound in 32 minutes.

the general trend is leaning towards playing small ball though. of course there will always be room for players that are 7'2 that play defense and rebound and protect the paint. but for the most part, the center position, which used to be one of the most important positions and where you would have dominant forces such as shaq, david robinson, hakeem, etc. is now very weak and looks to be only getting worse.
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by copper
sarcasm?
No, why? Oden was supposed to be the next big thing, and Yao was very solid.
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

there will be some center that will turn shit around eventually
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

It's actually quite a deep position (much better than a few years ago when it was absolutely horrible), but since Shaq declined we've yet to see truly dominant centers like Kareem or Wilt who seem almost bigger than the league itself.
Dwight is the only elite center and he's clearly not at that level, even at his best. Bynum and Cousins have elite capabilities, unfortunately they're also largely flawed in ways that elite centers from the past weren't.
Some Cs are elite complementary players, however: Gasol (who has a poor man's Bill Walton thing going on), Tyson Chandler...
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by selrahc
thats because bosh is a ***** that will grab 1 rebound in 32 minutes.

the general trend is leaning towards playing small ball though. of course there will always be room for players that are 7'2 that play defense and rebound and protect the paint. but for the most part, the center position, which used to be one of the most important positions and where you would have dominant forces such as shaq, david robinson, hakeem, etc. is now very weak and looks to be only getting worse.
sure. But I would argue there are more quality centers today (cousins, hibbert, horford, etc) than there were several years ago. Hell, the pistons won the championship with a 6'7"? guy in the middle, at that time the best defensive center in the game. He failed in the nba originally because the wiz and magic tried to make him into a sf.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by JohnnySic
No, why? Oden was supposed to be the next big thing, and Yao was very solid.
I just didnt see how a injury prone never was and a not quite healthy enough to be a force were the demise. I think the fact that Athletic Bigs werent coming into the NBA with any skill. There have been lots of big boys that have been drafted , but they have always had " potential" attached to them and as we all know " potential" usually translates to "bust in waiting"
Since there is a shortage of " quality " bigs to go around, Teams have been forced to play smaller rotations ...or...play a lesser talent on the floor.
This combined with Bigs wanting to be stretch 4s and stay outside shooting bombs away( an influx of euro style ball) has diminished the little bit of post up back to the basket skills they would have been learning. It is an ebb and flow of the game.
There will be another influx of Bigs that wanna play in the paint and actually take the time to learn the skills to be a post player and when they do? We'll have to start a thread about the lost art of the stretch 4s
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

Dying Breed No Doubt About. Pau Gasol is Actually Closer to 7`1 ft and Duncan is 6`11 ft. Most of These Players Would Have Played Center Back in the 80s and 90s and They are 2 Legit Most Talented Post Game Bigs in the Game Today. Duncan has Been Playing Center for the Last 5 Years Though Its Hard To Consider Him a PF more like a CF or Just A Center.

This is Not the 1st Time Teams are Using 3 Forward Line Ups Instead of a Center. The Sonics Used Kemp, Schrempf and Perkings as 3 Forward Line Up Putting Perkins at Center but He Was More a PF With 3-Point Range, Kemp a PF and Schrempf a Point-Forward and SF/PF Hybrid. It Gives You More Versatility When You Don`t Have a Dominant Offensive Big Like that of Shaq, Yao, Duncan or Pau.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Completely agree with you. And will go a little further and say that for as much as people seem to think that the center position "sucks" today, it is worlds better than it has been. In the late 90s to early 2000s teams were so stuck in the mindset that centers had to be over 7 ft and weigh more than 260 pounds, that they resorted to playing an inferior basketball player just because he had size. Now teams are more concerned with playing their best players instead of solely focusing on size.

Funny thing is that for as long as this has been going on it seems like the media and most fans just now starting to catch on. In 2009 I first pointed out that teams were starting to embrace smaller players ball we used to consider as lanky 4s (i.e. Al Horford, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, etc.) at the center position and noticed that it caused the teams to be more productive and everyone thought I was crazy. Now seems like every team has that type of guy at the 5.

Here check it out >>>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=123791



I think you make some great points but I strongly disagree with the Shaq argument. Chandler was always a center. Curry was also but he played PF because Chandler was on the team. Duncan had Robinson so he was never gonna be a C. But after Robinson retired he didn't want to switch. There is not about Webber's game that would make you play him at C. His length isn't crazy either, neither is his broadness. He's thick tho, and he's strong. He's also just under 6'10. But not a center. Jermaine O'Neal could play center but he had Brad Miller and Jeff Foster. Plus, O'Neal is more of a PF. Camby is an out and out center who is skilled enough, smart enough, agile and quick enough to play PF. Shaq didn't scare any player of consequence from playing center. Guys like Dale Davis and Antonio Davis (when he became a starter) played C. So I think you have all of that, including the quality of the centers in the era, as completely wrong.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by BoutPractice
It's actually quite a deep position (much better than a few years ago when it was absolutely horrible), but since Shaq declined we've yet to see truly dominant centers like Kareem or Wilt who seem almost bigger than the league itself.
Dwight is the only elite center and he's clearly not at that level, even at his best. Bynum and Cousins have elite capabilities, unfortunately they're also largely flawed in ways that elite centers from the past weren't.
Some Cs are elite complementary players, however: Gasol (who has a poor man's Bill Walton thing going on), Tyson Chandler...



The only thing I disagree with is Marc Gasol...I agree that he's a poor man's Bill Walton but that's true enough for him to be a legitimate all-star PLAYER. He'll never be top 10, but he's more than a complimentary player.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsmoke
there will be some center that will turn shit around eventually

Its already started turning around. Maybe you haven't noticed but the league currently has about 10 promising centers under the age of 25 that could grow to become true players in this league.

In '03 these are the top scoring guys at the center position.

Code:
1 Shaquille O'Neal, C LAL 67 37.8 27.5 ppg 10.4-18.1 57.4% FG 2 Zydrunas Ilgauskas, C CLE 81 30 17.2 ppg 6.1-13.9 44.1% FG 3 Yao Ming, C HOU 82 29 13.5 ppg 4.9-9.8 49.8% FG 4 Brad Miller, C IND 73 31.1 13.1 ppg 4.5-9.1 49.3% FG 5 Michael Olowokandi, C LAC 36 38 12.3 ppg 5.2-12.1 42.7% FG 6 Rasho Nesterovic, C MIN 77 30.4 11.2 ppg 5.2-9.9 52.5% FG 7 Eddy Curry, C CHI 81 19.4 10.5 ppg 4.1-7.1 58.5% FG 8 Jamaal Magloire, C NO 82 29.8 10.3 ppg 3.7-7.7 48.0% FG 9 Vlade Divac, C SAC 80 29.8 9.9 ppg 3.8-8.2 46.6% FG 10 Predrag Drobnjak, C SEA 82 24.2 9.4 ppg 4.0-9.6 41.2% FG 11 Raef LaFrentz, C DAL 69 23.3 9.3 ppg 3.9-7.4 51.8% FG 12 Tyson Chandler, C CHI 75 24.4 9.2 ppg 3.4-6.5 53.1% FG 13 Theo Ratliff, C ATL 81 31.1 8.7 ppg 3.4-7.3 46.4% FG 14 David Robinson, C SA 64 26.2 8.5 ppg 3.1-6.6 46.9% FG 15 Erick Dampier, C GS 82 24.1 8.2 ppg 3.2-6.4 49.6% FG 16 Marcus Camby, C DEN 29 21.2 7.6 ppg 3.2-7.8 41.0% FG 17 Kwame Brown, C WSH 80 22.2 7.4 ppg 2.8-6.3 44.6% FG 18 Tony Battie, C BOS 67 25.1 7.3 ppg 3.0-5.5 53.9% FG 19 Todd MacCulloch, C PHI 42 19.3 7.1 ppg 2.9-5.7 51.7% FG 20 Mehmet Okur, C DET 72 19 6.9 ppg 2.5-5.9 42.6% FG
* Did not include Chris Webber, JO, and Nene that ESPN considers as Cs.



Compare that to the top 20 scorers at the center position today. And remember that doesn't even include young guys with high upsides like Javale McGee (10.0 ppg), Spencer Hawes (9.9 ppg), Roy Hibbert (9.7 ppg), DeAndre Jordan (8.8 ppg), and Andre Drummond (7.5 ppg).



Code:
1 Brook Lopez, C BKN 34 29.5 18.5 ppg 7.4-14.3 51.7% FG 2 DeMarcus Cousins, C SAC 37 32.1 18.1 ppg 6.7-15.1 44.3% FG 3 Tim Duncan, PF SA 42 30.2 17.5 ppg 7.0-13.9 50.5% FG 4 Chris Bosh, C MIA 37 33.4 17.5 ppg 6.7-12.4 54.5% FG 5 Al Jefferson, C UTAH 40 32.9 17.3 ppg 7.3-15.2 48.4% FG 6 Dwight Howard, C LAL 38 35.5 17.1 ppg 6.1-10.4 58.2% FG 7 Nikola Pekovic, C MIN 34 31.2 16.0 ppg 6.3-12.4 51.1% FG 8 Al Horford, C ATL 39 36.9 15.6 ppg 7.0-13.3 52.8% FG 9 Greg Monroe, C DET 41 32.6 15.4 ppg 6.0-12.6 47.5% FG 10 Anderson Varejao, C CLE 25 36 14.1 ppg 5.5-11.6 47.8% FG 11 Marc Gasol, C MEM 40 34.3 13.3 ppg 4.9-10.3 47.8% FG 12 Chris Kaman, C DAL 40 24.3 12.6 ppg 5.6-11.1 50.5% FG 13 Nenê , C WSH 26 24.5 12.5 ppg 4.4-8.8 49.6% FG 14 J.J. Hickson, C POR 40 29.3 12.4 ppg 5.1-9.3 54.7% FG 15 Tyson Chandler, C NY 39 32.9 12.2 ppg 4.5-6.7 67.4% FG Joakim Noah, C CHI 39 38.2 12.2 ppg 4.6-10.2 45.5% FG 17 Nikola Vucevic, C ORL 41 32.2 11.6 ppg 5.3-10.2 51.7% FG Marcin Gortat, C PHX 41 32.2 11.6 ppg 5.0-9.4 52.5% FG 19 Robin Lopez, C NO 41 25.9 11.3 ppg 4.8-8.7 55.0% FG 20 Omer Asik, C HOU 43 29.6 10.3 ppg 4.0-7.4 53.5% FG

*Did not include Andrea Barganani and Byron Mullens that ESPN considers as Cs, and counted Tim Duncan as a C although ESPN classifies him as a power forward.

Last edited by 2LeTTeRS : 01-23-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

Ilgauskas 17ppg. Thats nice.

Its hard to look at Chris B as a Center tho..
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I think you make some great points but I strongly disagree with the Shaq argument. Chandler was always a center. Curry was also but he played PF because Chandler was on the team. Duncan had Robinson so he was never gonna be a C. But after Robinson retired he didn't want to switch. There is not about Webber's game that would make you play him at C. His length isn't crazy either, neither is his broadness. He's thick tho, and he's strong. He's also just under 6'10. But not a center. Jermaine O'Neal could play center but he had Brad Miller and Jeff Foster. Plus, O'Neal is more of a PF. Camby is an out and out center who is skilled enough, smart enough, agile and quick enough to play PF. Shaq didn't scare any player of consequence from playing center. Guys like Dale Davis and Antonio Davis (when he became a starter) played C. So I think you have all of that, including the quality of the centers in the era, as completely wrong.

I'm pretty sure Chandler was projected to play the 4. He was thought to be a KG clone at draft-time was drafted the same year that the Bulls picked Curry to be their 5 of the future. He was moved over to the 4 because the Bulls discovered that he had no range or handles. Here goes his pre-draft profile from nbadraft.net >>> http://www.nbadraft.net/players/tyson-chandler

And I think you are the one that is off about the quality of the center position in the late 90s to early 2000s. Besides Shaq, Vlade, young Yao, Brad Miller, and Ben Wallace the center position was absolutely horrible.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

There are lots of productive Cs who will board and rebound and make hardhat plays but there's not a whole lot of guys with good post up games you can reliably go to in the half court. Could probably count them on one hand. And "good" is subjective. Like Hibbert can make a basic hook, but it's fugly as hell and if he gets doubled it gets ugly.

Yao/Oden/Bynum going down hurt.

There's lots of PFs too who don't have much of a post up game. If Amare had basic back to the basket skills the Suns could've won a title.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?

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I'm pretty sure Chandler was projected to play the 4. He was thought to be a KG clone at draft-time was drafted the same year that the Bulls picked Curry to be their 5 of the future. He was moved over to the 4 because the Bulls discovered that he had no range or handles. Here goes his pre-draft profile from nbadraft.net >>> http://www.nbadraft.net/players/tyson-chandler

And I think you are the one that is off about the quality of the center position in the late 90s to early 2000s. Besides Shaq, Vlade, young Yao, Brad Miller, and Ben Wallace the center position was absolutely horrible.



I don't know how I'm wrong, as the impression I got was that you don't think the center position was as bad back then as people said...I argued that it wasn't any good. I also argued that none of those guys moved to the 4 to avoid O'Neal.


The only thing I see in that draft profile is that he wants to play like Garnett. Everybody wanted to play like Garnett. I don't see that as trying to avoid Shaq or being projected to play the 4. I saw that draft almost 2 years ago and I saw both him and Curry interviewed. It was clear that Chandler would be playing the 5 and Curry would be playing the 4 and that's exactly what happened.
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