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Old 01-23-2013, 11:02 PM   #31
MMM
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

Agreed, which is why we need more research and open dialog to try and remove the stigma attached with mental illness.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Agreed, which is why we need more research and open dialog to try and remove the stigma attached with mental illness.
And to cure it, of course.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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I posted on the front page, it varies from state to state. In Texas to be eligible must have a clean record and no mental health issues. Then you must complete a 10-15 hour course run by a Department of Public Safety official which consists of a written test and a shooting practical at a shooting range. You have to score 70% on both tests to qualify.

Ok, those are the types of regulations I can get behind and I think those stats you posted demonstrate the effectiveness that good gun regulation can have.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I don't get the whole protect yourself from the government thing either. That sounds crazy to be honest. But I hate the idea of not being able to protect myself from someone who breaks in and tries to rob me. If they have a gun, and all I have is a knife, then I'm dead.
The entire Bill of Rights, and a lot of the rest of the Constitution, is designed as means of protecting us from the Government. It's one of the bedrock motivations for the founding of the sovereign version of our country the way it was. It's part of The Great American Experiment.

It seems to be working out pretty well so far, for just about the entire world.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

There's a lot of evidence that the framers debated putting the right of "self-protection" into the Constitution and rejected it.

We have all heard of the Federalists who were in favor of ratifying the Constitution. There were also Anti-Federalists who preferred a weaker central government like the one that existed under the Articles of Confederation. The Anti-Fedderalists were in the minority and they lost. The Federalists won and the Consitution was ratified. In Pennsylvania, the minority published a dissent in a local newspaper. Parts of this dissent was adapted into the Bill of Rights and Parts were rejected by James Madison. The right to "self-protection" was rejected.

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The Pennsylvania Antifederalists also proposed amendments concerning the army, the militia, the right to bear arms, and the right to hunt. These amendments addressed at least six separate issues: (1) the right of self-protection through the ownership of weapons, (2) the right to serve in the militia, (3) the right to hunt and fish, (4) the prevention of a standing army, (5) the power of Congress over the states, and (6) the power of the states to control their own armies or militias.[66] The proposals, which are found in three of the fourteen [Page 208] amendments offered by the Pennsylvania minority, help us understand the intentions of the framers of the Second Amendment. This understanding, however, is a negative one. By seeing what the framers of the Second Amendment did not do, we can better understand what they did do.

Had the proposals of the Pennsylvania Antifederalists on this issue been written into the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment might be the least controversial of the first ten Amendments. It is of utmost significance, however, that unlike other aspects of the Pennsylvania proposals, which were incorporated into the Bill of Rights almost word-for-word, Madison and his colleagues in the First Congress emphatically rejected the goals and the language of the Pennsylvania Antifederalists on these issues.

Thus, it is useful to consider what Congress might have written, but did not. Number Seven of the amendments listed in the Reasons of Dissent provided

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[t]hat the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
So does using a gun properly.

You'll get no argument from me on that. Everyone who owns a gun has a responsibility to learn how to use it. If not, they're risking not only other people's lives, but their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoooter
The entire Bill of Rights, and a lot of the rest of the Constitution, is designed as means of protecting us from the Government. It's one of the bedrock motivations for the founding of the sovereign version of our country the way it was. It's part of The Great American Experiment.

It seems to be working out pretty well so far, for just about the entire world.

I'm talking about protecting yourself from the government with guns. That just isn't relevant here, and sounds paranoid. The government won't come into innocent people's homes to harm them for no reason, and if that was their intention, civilians wouldn't have a chance with or without a gun.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You'll get no argument from me on that. Everyone who owns a gun has a responsibility to learn how to use it. If not, they're risking not only other people's lives, but their own.
Start throwing those knives! Also, you could get a bow and arrow and learn to shoot it really fast like in The Lord of the Rings. Or one that had, like, pepper spray and boxing glove arrows like the Green Arrow.

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I'm talking about protecting yourself from the government with guns. That just isn't relevant here, and sounds paranoid. The government won't come into innocent people's homes to harm them for no reason, and if that was their intention, civilians wouldn't have a chance with or without a gun.
There's a lot of reasons why I think this is, if nothing more, inaccurate. I can respond more in-depth if you want. Unless the government was just trying to exterminate the people (and there's problems with that too), but mostly, if what you're saying is so impossible, then Vietnam and Afghanistan would have been walks in the park, because all they had were rifles and a home court advantage. In fact, the entire concept of geurilla warfare, which is based on a dramatically overmatched group effectively combating their opposition, would be moot. I think the Alex Jones types are plenty nutty myself (though not Jones himself, he's selling a product, quite well), but they're not necessarily wrong.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:00 AM   #38
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by KevinNYC
There's a lot of evidence that the framers debated putting the right of "self-protection" into the Constitution and rejected it.

We have all heard of the Federalists who were in favor of ratifying the Constitution. There were also Anti-Federalists who preferred a weaker central government like the one that existed under the Articles of Confederation. The Anti-Fedderalists were in the minority and they lost. The Federalists won and the Consitution was ratified. In Pennsylvania, the minority published a dissent in a local newspaper. Parts of this dissent was adapted into the Bill of Rights and Parts were rejected by James Madison. The right to "self-protection" was rejected.
Do you personally think that people shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves with weapons at least equal to their attackers? I'm not trying to paint you with any sort of brush here, I'm just interested in how you see it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

Firearms can't take on our military strength. Afghanistan and Iraq invasions ended in days
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:03 AM   #40
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You'll get no argument from me on that. Everyone who owns a gun has a responsibility to learn how to use it. If not, they're risking not only other people's lives, but their own.

I'm talking about protecting yourself from the government with guns. That just isn't relevant here, and sounds paranoid. The government won't come into innocent people's homes to harm them for no reason, and if that was their intention, civilians wouldn't have a chance with or without a gun.

What if they decided you are no longer allowed the freedom of speech? What if the handful of people in power decide that you are no longer protected from unreasonable search and seizure? What if they decide, for reasons of national security, that you are no longer allowed the right to a trial by jury?

There is a saying that goes "The second amendment protects the first", but it holds true for every right guaranteed in the Constitution. Things change in this world, and they change fast. Not 300 years ago the British Empire ruled 25% of the entire world. Today they don't even control their entire island. There might come a day when the US is no longer the dominant player on the world stage. Who knows what the world is going to look like in 25, 50, 100 years?

One only needs to look at the Patriot Act to see that these things aren't so far fetched. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, it may not happen in any of our lifetimes. That isn't the point. The point is that a government exists to serve it's people, and an armed population is the only guarantee the people have that the handful of people with power will continue to serve their constituents.

This is why the right to bear arms is a CIVIL RIGHT guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. It is incredibly important, and it is timeless.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:06 AM   #41
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by kNicKz
Firearms can't take on our military strength. Afghanistan and Iraq invasions ended in days

Who do you think comprises our military? It's full of ordinary people like you and me. You really believe they would kill their friends and family because the government commands it? You think they don't have thoughts and emotions and ideologies of their own?

"We couldn't protect our freedoms even if we wanted to, so we might as well give them up in advance."

That ^^^ is what you are saying.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:08 AM   #42
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by bmulls
Who do you think comprises our military? It's full of ordinary people like you and me. You really believe they would kill their friends and family because the government commands it? You think they don't have thoughts and emotions and ideologies of their own?

"We couldn't protect our freedoms even if we wanted to, so we might as well give them up in advance."

That ^^^ is what you are saying.
This is actually an argument against our needing firearms. Essentially, "they wouldn't attack us anyway, even if they were ordered too. So we don't need the guns to protect ourselves".
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:11 AM   #43
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
This is actually an argument against our needing firearms. Essentially, "they wouldn't attack us anyway, even if they were ordered too. So we don't need the guns to protect ourselves".

This.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:14 AM   #44
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
This is actually an argument against our needing firearms. Essentially, "they wouldn't attack us anyway, even if they were ordered too. So we don't need the guns to protect ourselves".

Hardly. It's not as though 100% would rebel, just like 100% wouldn't remain loyal to the government. The Syrian Rebels (who are today, at this very moment, beating the snot out of the Syrian government despite the government being armed with tanks and fighter jets) are comprised of many ex Syrian military. There are many who remained loyal to Assad, but there are just as many who have become rebels and are fighting for what they believe is right.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:19 AM   #45
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by bmulls
Hardly. It's not as though 100% would rebel, just like 100% wouldn't remain loyal to the government. The Syrian Rebels (who are today, at this very moment, beating the snot out of the Syrian government despite the government being armed with tanks and fighter jets) are comprised of many ex Syrian military. There are many who remained loyal to Assad, but there are just as many who have become rebels and are fighting for what they believe is right.
Well, you didn't qualify any percentages; and any percentage who wouldn't follow orders against civilians is an argumentative step towards the anti-gun outlook. The closer you get to 100%, the more the "protection from the government argument" deflates. So either way, you're undercutting your point.

I'm just saying you should be more careful not to muddle the support for your thesis.
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