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Old 01-24-2013, 01:30 AM   #46
ShaqAttack3234
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
Start throwing those knives! Also, you could get a bow and arrow and learn to shoot it really fast like in The Lord of the Rings. Or one that had, like, pepper spray and boxing glove arrows like the Green Arrow.


Eh, regular bow and arrows are a letdown after seeing Rambo's dynamite-tipped arrows.


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There's a lot of reasons why I think this is, if nothing more, inaccurate. I can respond more in-depth if you want. Unless the government was just trying to exterminate the people (and there's problems with that too), but mostly, if what you're saying is so impossible, then Vietnam and Afghanistan would have been walks in the park, because all they had were rifles and a home court advantage. In fact, the entire concept of geurilla warfare, which is based on a dramatically overmatched group effectively combating their opposition, would be moot. I think the Alex Jones types are plenty nutty myself (though not Jones himself, he's selling a product, quite well), but they're not necessarily wrong.

I think that if the government for whatever reason wanted to harm US citizens for no reason, they probably wouldn't announce their presence.

But to me, the thought of this scenario is truly crazy. I'm surprised some believe this.

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Originally Posted by bmulls
What if they decided you are no longer allowed the freedom of speech? What if the handful of people in power decide that you are no longer protected from unreasonable search and seizure? What if they decide, for reasons of national security, that you are no longer allowed the right to a trial by jury?

There is a saying that goes "The second amendment protects the first", but it holds true for every right guaranteed in the Constitution. Things change in this world, and they change fast. Not 300 years ago the British Empire ruled 25% of the entire world. Today they don't even control their entire island. There might come a day when the US is no longer the dominant player on the world stage. Who knows what the world is going to look like in 25, 50, 100 years?

One only needs to look at the Patriot Act to see that these things aren't so far fetched. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, it may not happen in any of our lifetimes. That isn't the point. The point is that a government exists to serve it's people, and an armed population is the only guarantee the people have that the handful of people with power will continue to serve their constituents.

This is why the right to bear arms is a CIVIL RIGHT guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. It is incredibly important, and it is timeless.

I'm pro-gun, but the scenario does sound crazy to me. I don't like the position the US is in right now, but I don't buy into conspiracy theories.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:40 AM   #47
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
My guns are here to protect me from the government and criminals.

you really think you can protect yourself from the government ?

they have bigger guns, bullets that you can't have,I mean cmon they tanks and all kinds of other high tech crap you don't even know about yet
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:47 AM   #48
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I think that if the government for whatever reason wanted to harm US citizens for no reason, they probably wouldn't announce their presence.
Well, I don't think anyone's arguing they would do it for "no reason". The reasons might be stupid, but I'm sure there are reasons. I'm not too well versed in the conspiracy stuff though. And how would they not announce their presence? Wouldn't a helicopter dropping troops in your back yard or a patriot missile wiping out your neighbor's house be fairly unambiguous announcments? Although they are working quite feverishly on, and by many indications are getting quite close to, practical invisibility.

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But to me, the thought of this scenario is truly crazy. I'm surprised some believe this.
Sometimes people believe all sorts of crazy stuff. IIRC, you were pretty adamant that President Obama had some sort of weird agenda against small business owners, even after that interpretation had been laid bare as a patently absurd bit of Republican propaganda. ;)


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I'm pro-gun, but the scenario does sound crazy to me. I don't like the position the US is in right now, but I don't buy into conspiracy theories.
The US isn't really in too horrible a spot. We've got problems, but they're nowhere near intractable. And the rest of the world still mostly considers us a financial safe haven.

I'd like to recommend a couple of great books I think you should read. The Better Angels of Our Nature, by Stephen Pinker; and Abundance, by Peter Diamandis. By almost every conceivable metric, the world at large has never been safer, happier, healthier, or more prosperous, and all of our major problems - poverty, disease, inequality - are well on their way to being eradicated by processes that accelerate at exponential rates. Optimism has consistently been winning out over the arc of human history.

A lot of cynicism is owed to news cycles and media apparatuses that keep our interest by stimulating the over-developed danger-sensing parts of our brains. "If it bleeds, it leads".

The future's looking way up; I wish everyone wasn't as glum and combative about it as they are.

2012 was awesome.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:00 AM   #49
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
Well, you didn't qualify any percentages; and any percentage who wouldn't follow orders against civilians is an argumentative step towards the anti-gun outlook. The closer you get to 100%, the more the "protection from the government argument" deflates. So either way, you're undercutting your point.

I'm just saying you should be more careful not to muddle the support for your thesis.
lol what? There is no "deflation." Getting closer to 100% does not eliminate the corrupt few and the ones that do obey.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:06 AM   #50
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by shlver
lol what? There is no "deflation." Getting closer to 100% does not eliminate the corrupt few and the ones that do obey.


Wait, what? What did you think I meant by "deflation" such that you had to wrap it in quotations? I never assumed complete elimination, I was arguing for trends. You may never get to 100% on any issue. But if only 1% obey their treasonous orders, how is that same as 50%, or 85%? Or how is it worse? 5,000 troops trying to subjugated the American people through force doesn't present the same scope of danger as 500,000 trying to do it, even if both scenarios are completely asinine. Surely you can recognize a gradient.

And most importantly, why does most of ISH appear unable to parse out the meanings of unambiguous sentences? A lot of them I'm convinced can barely read. And on top of being laughably, almost confusingly wrong, you're confidently oblivious enough to throw in a, "lol what?".

It's maddening.


Last edited by Scoooter : 01-24-2013 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:11 AM   #51
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter


Wait, what? What did you think I meant by "deflation" such that you had to wrap it in quotations? I never assumed complete elimination, I was arguing for trends. You may never get to 100% on any issue. But if only 1% obey their treasonous orders, how is that same as 50%, or 85%? Or how is it worse? Surely you can recognize a gradient.

And most importantly, why does most of ISH appear unable to parse out the meanings of unambiguous sentences? A lot of them I'm convinced can barely read. And on top of being laughably, almost confusingly wrong, you're confidently oblivious to throw in a, "lol what?".

It's maddening.

lol what? It doesn't matter if there is a trend, if there is a threat of a corrupt few and even 1% that obey that means that we need protection from the government. Don't understand how the argument can get "deflated."
Why are you mad though? Your post doesn't make sense.

Last edited by shlver : 01-24-2013 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:12 AM   #52
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoooter


Wait, what? What did you think I meant by "deflation" such that you had to wrap it in quotations? I never assumed complete elimination, I was arguing for trends. You may never get to 100% on any issue. But if only 1% obey their treasonous orders, how is that same as 50%, or 85%? Or how is it worse? 5,000 troops trying to subjugated the American people through force doesn't present the same scope of danger as 500,000 trying to do it, even if both scenarios are completely asinine. Surely you can recognize a gradient.

And most importantly, why does most of ISH appear unable to parse out the meanings of unambiguous sentences? A lot of them I'm convinced can barely read. And on top of being laughably, almost confusingly wrong, you're confidently oblivious enough to throw in a, "lol what?".

It's maddening.

The gradient doesn't matter. If there are 5000 troops subjugating us, then we need protection from them.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:17 AM   #53
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by bmulls
What if they decided you are no longer allowed the freedom of speech? What if the handful of people in power decide that you are no longer protected from unreasonable search and seizure? What if they decide, for reasons of national security, that you are no longer allowed the right to a trial by jury?

With the laws in place, it would be very difficult to just decide to take away those things. The only guarantee you have is if you strengthen your institution and checks and balances. If you are concerned about centralized power in the government then more focus should be placed on how to regulate the states power.

Quote:
There is a saying that goes "The second amendment protects the first", but it holds true for every right guaranteed in the Constitution. Things change in this world, and they change fast. Not 300 years ago the British Empire ruled 25% of the entire world. Today they don't even control their entire island. There might come a day when the US is no longer the dominant player on the world stage. Who knows what the world is going to look like in 25, 50, 100 years?

One only needs to look at the Patriot Act to see that these things aren't so far fetched. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, it may not happen in any of our lifetimes. That isn't the point. The point is that a government exists to serve it's people, and an armed population is the only guarantee the people have that the handful of people with power will continue to serve their constituents.

This is why the right to bear arms is a CIVIL RIGHT guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. It is incredibly important, and it is timeless.

I don't believe that the 2nd amendment is the only way you can defend your rights, seems like it should be a last measure . However, if you want an armed population then we probably need more regulations and training for the populous so that we can ensure that all gun owners are responsible.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:19 AM   #54
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by shlver
lol what? It doesn't matter if there is a trend, if there is a threat of a corrupt few and even 1% that obey that means that we need protection from the government. Don't understand how the argument can get "deflated."
Why are you mad though? Your post doesn't make sense.
What does that even mean? Life is all about trends. You ever hear that saying about it not being "black and white"? And again, what issues do you have with the word deflation? Was it the usage or are you just hearing it now for the first time?

I'm mad because apparently you're either a)just ****ing with me (I hope), or b) inexplicably proud about being some kind of imbecile.

But I guess that's what I get for arguing on the internet.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:22 AM   #55
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by shlver
The gradient doesn't matter. If there are 5000 troops subjugating us, then we need protection from them.
I often feel like I have too much faith in humanity to believe you're doing anything other than trolling me. But sometimes I wonder about all that.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:38 AM   #56
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
What does that even mean? Life is all about trends. You ever hear that saying about it not being "black and white"?
This is pretty black and white. If there is a threat, even if it's 5000 instead of 500000 we still need protection
Quote:
And again, what issues do you have with the word deflation? Was it the usage or are you just hearing it now for the first time?
Why don't you explain what it means and what you mean? Contextually, it doesn't make any sense.
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I'm mad because apparently you're either a)just ****ing with me (I hope), or b) inexplicably proud about being some kind of imbecile.

But I guess that's what I get for arguing on the internet.
II'm not ****ing with you. Your post doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:39 AM   #57
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
I often feel like I have too much faith in humanity to believe you're doing anything other than trolling me. But sometimes I wonder about all that.
??? How does a gradient imply no need for protection?
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:42 AM   #58
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by shlver
??? How does a gradient imply no need for protection?
When did I say that? I said the argument was deflated, not defeated. Fucking learn to read.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:46 AM   #59
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
When did I say that? I said the argument was deflated, not defeated. Fucking learn to read.
SO what does that mean? You either need protection from the gov or you don't. Deflating the strength of the argument? Nope. If there is any threat, there is a need for protection. It hinges on the fact that you either have 0 military threat or some(small, little, alot, whatever).
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:47 AM   #60
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Default Re: "Americans need right to protect themselves" - most BS regurgitated statement ever?

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Originally Posted by shlver
This is pretty black and white. If there is a threat, even if it's 5000 instead of 500000 we still need protection
You said the "gradient doesn't matter", there are no degrees. Let me explain to what that means, because obviously you don't know. That means that the threat presented by 1 troop turning against the American people is functionally the same as a threat presented by all of them doing it. That's what you're arguing, and I'm seriously wondering if you're wearing a plastic helmet right now.

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Why don't you explain what it means and what you mean? Contextually, it doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense because apparently whatever form of intellectual rdisability you suffer from is beyond my ability or inclination to fix. Please just stick to using the internet for porn. There's some good stuff out there.

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II'm not ****ing with you. Your post doesn't make sense.
And I'm not ****ing with you, you might actually be retarded.
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