Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-25-2013, 04:06 PM   #1
eliteballer
NBA rookie of the year
 
eliteballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,500
eliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputation
Default ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Quote:
The defense.

Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there. These are the times that try virtuoso's souls.

And when there's an extra defender on one side of the court, the good play is pretty obvious: pass to the other side, where your team has the numbers advantage.

If Thorpe is right, that this team defensive technique is to blame for our new shortage of big scorers, there are various ways you might expect the data to have his back. For instance, secondary scorers -- those guys catching the ball on the sparsely defended weak side -- ought to be scoring more, while top players could expect to see an uptick in assists.

That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

Quote:
Not getting to the line

There's one other part of this story. A big part. And it's this: Free throws are more rare than ever. There are 22.3 per game on average this season, which is the lowest level in NBA history. And it's not a one-year aberration. The second lowest year ever was last year. Every season since 2008-09 is in the top 10 all-time for fewest free throws.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Top players are simply not getting to the line.

Those high-minute players combined to shoot more than 2,400 free throws in the first 36 games of both 1985-86 and 2007-08. This season, they stepped to the line just 1,757 times.

In a way, this is one mystery solved. Pace mildly slower. Minutes slightly lower. Scoring generally down a bit. Free throws are down hugely compared to all of history and 10 percent over the last five years. New defenses can explain some or all of that, and it's more clear than ever why so few players are averaging 20 points per game.

But this mystery comes with a sequel: Why so few free throws?

One theory is that the NBA has reduced some of the referee trickery available to big scorers, for instance, by discouraging the "rip-through" move which led to cheap free throws for top scorers. Refereeing oversight has evolved, too, with the league looking over referees' shoulders more than ever in the name of a consistently called game. Perhaps "star calls" are on the wane generally.

Another possible explanation, however, is that Thorpe's defensive theory explains this too: with extra defenders around, perhaps players simply aren't attacking the rim, where big numbers of fouls are drawn, as often as they used to.

If so, that could be a major factor -- the major factor, even -- in explaining why top players aren't scoring like they used to.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...e-gunners-gone

Last edited by eliteballer : 01-25-2013 at 04:10 PM.
eliteballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #2
Myth
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Myth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 23,243
Myth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableMyth is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Banned by the new gun policy.
Myth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #3
HurricaneKid
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,565
HurricaneKid has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer

Kobe went Highlander on 'em.
HurricaneKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 05:03 PM   #4
Burgz V2
Good college starter
 
Burgz V2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,082
Burgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

if anything it limited the ability of top players to isolate on one side of the floor. in order to prevent this from happening you either need to initiate your offense with a) dribble penetration b) post-ups or c)pushing the ball of misses and having bigs run the floor well.

many teams can't do this well, and those that do often nullify the effect of this defence. NY, OKC, MIA, LAC, the Spurs, pretty much all the top tier teams in the league get extremely consistent dribble penetration.

in addition to the strong side box teams who use this philosophy will always hedge all screens hard but never trap (unless the pg is an extremely good shooter and is on fire) and forces all ballhandlers towards the wings forcing them into a position that allows them to set up their defence that way or into a pass that would do the same thing. They key to this defence? Mobile big men and quick guards. the bigs need to be able to cover a lot of ground quickly to prevent the guards from passing it to the rolling/flashing big and the guards have to be able to get back to their man extremely quick. If you look at the top teams they also have this component. It's part of the reason straight pick and roll offences no longer work consistently(ahem D'antoni you listening bruh? )

good read
Burgz V2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 05:08 PM   #5
TheMarkMadsen
Know what im sayin?
 
TheMarkMadsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8,627
TheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation hereTheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation hereTheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation hereTheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation hereTheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation hereTheMarkMadsen has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Threads like this shod get more attention.

If you want to debate scoring era vs era this a good place to start
TheMarkMadsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #6
9512
hon hon hon eat snails
 
9512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,286
9512 has decent reputation9512 has decent reputation
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Another old geezer lamenting how the game was better and tougher back during their era.

How many of those articles or quotes will we keep seeing?
9512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 05:35 PM   #7
Djahjaga
High School JV MVP
 
Djahjaga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 683
Djahjaga has decent reputation
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Posted a thread like this a little while back (and chazzy made one, too, I think)

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...=1#post8160100



I think it's an interesting argument.
Djahjaga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 07:30 PM   #8
Burgz V2
Good college starter
 
Burgz V2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,082
Burgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected posterBurgz V2 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9512
Another old geezer lamenting how the game was better and tougher back during their era.

How many of those articles or quotes will we keep seeing?

this is kind of different though. its actually implying its tougher because of the advent of new defensive schemes. its arguing because of the evolution of defence dominant scorers have a tougher time getting good shots and getting to the line.
Burgz V2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 07:42 PM   #9
MisterAmazing
Good High School Starter
 
MisterAmazing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 934
MisterAmazing has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

i blame gilbert arenas
MisterAmazing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 07:49 PM   #10
ZenMaster
Whap'em
 
ZenMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,928
ZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterZenMaster is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: ESPN: Where Have All the Gunners Gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgz V2
if anything it limited the ability of top players to isolate on one side of the floor. in order to prevent this from happening you either need to initiate your offense with a) dribble penetration b) post-ups or c)pushing the ball of misses and having bigs run the floor well.

many teams can't do this well, and those that do often nullify the effect of this defence. NY, OKC, MIA, LAC, the Spurs, pretty much all the top tier teams in the league get extremely consistent dribble penetration.

in addition to the strong side box teams who use this philosophy will always hedge all screens hard but never trap (unless the pg is an extremely good shooter and is on fire) and forces all ballhandlers towards the wings forcing them into a position that allows them to set up their defence that way or into a pass that would do the same thing. They key to this defence? Mobile big men and quick guards. the bigs need to be able to cover a lot of ground quickly to prevent the guards from passing it to the rolling/flashing big and the guards have to be able to get back to their man extremely quick. If you look at the top teams they also have this component. It's part of the reason straight pick and roll offences no longer work consistently(ahem D'antoni you listening bruh? )

good read

Good post sir
ZenMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:24 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy