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Old 01-25-2013, 06:07 PM   #16
Qwyjibo
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by letshaveacorona
Are the Raptors missing that 1a type guy, Sure they are but it doesnt mean they dont have a good team. And at the current pace I wouldnt bet on that type player coming from the draft. So maybe we can all throw out what if this. or what if that. The reality is that player will more than likely have to come via trade i.e someones overpaid player (Gay), unhappy player (Chris Paul traded to clippers from New Orleans) & (vince carter traded for golfballs to New jersey by toronto), Bad attitude player (zach randolph traded to Memphis from Clippers for Quentin Richardson), new managment direction player no longer needed ( Pau Gasol when he played for Memphis and was traded to LA) & (Kevin garnett traded to Celtics from Minnesota) or the riskier expiring deal contract (carmelo anthony traded to new york from Denver) ill stop here.

I know my hoops bro. At this point Its way more realistic that we trade for a stud then we draft one. Sorry bro otherwise you have good points on just not with you on blowing this thing up and hoping we can repeat what oklahoma did(once in a lifetime draft super team) and get Durant, westrook, ibaka, harden. Not gonna happen again for a long time bro.
Sure I'm down for trading for that "missing piece". Someone who could be your 2nd best player or, maybe, a top player like a Chris Paul. But to do that you need assets and room to fit that kind of contract in. The Raptors don't have either. With the recent contracts given out, the cap-room piece doesn't look very promising for the near future either. This roster has been so badly mismanaged ever since Colangelo took over. This is not a team that is being built to be a contender to add that kind of a piece. Everything I've seen from the Raptors screams "We're happy to get to mediocrity and stay there."

The Derozan extension (which kills any trade value he might've had) combined with the drafting of Ross and then signing Fields were absolutely mind-boggling. I don't even see what type of "plan" would involve making those moves.

I'm not advocating waiting for a Lebron and not stopping until you get one. That's totally unreasonable. But hit on say two top 5 picks and that could be the start of a great core (along with Valanciunas). Get a legit promising core going that will reach their primes and be up for contract extenions at around the same time. In today's NBA, when you draft a good player you basically have them for the first 6-7 years of their careers thanks to the way the CBA is structured. That is a big enough window to build a winner and establish that magical "winning atmosphere" as long as you have competent management.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 01-25-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Dude seriously I know you have good intentions and a well thought out rebuild plan but youre about 2 years too late. Your plans dont reflect the strength or reality of the current Raptors team. This team as is can and mark my words will get you anywhere from 32-41 wins. Thats not bad enough to get you a top 5 pick so your plan although its great in theory and should have been followed 2 years ago its not realistic today. They say one star player can add 10 wins to your end of season total then if we did make a trade as per my previous posts this team becomes a 42-51 win team. Im by no means a mediocrity type thinker but ill take that type of team for awhile at least i can stop hearing all the jokes about how the Raps suck.

All i have to say about Demar DeRozan is look at the following clip:

http://youtu.be/FLgYmZH14K4
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

I'm at work so I can't look at that but when it comes to Derozan, all I need to know is that he's barely improved over the past 3 years. His increased stats are simply due to increase minutes and shots (usage). He's basically topping out as an average player.

I would prefer that the current mistake of the composition of the roster isn't continued. That's why I want a new GM that would be allowed to do a full rebuild. Torch this roster down to the ground with Valanciunas being probably the only thing worth keeping. I'm down for this team to suck for the next 2-3 years as long as there is progress towards something big in the future. That's not the case right now. It probably won't happen but, IMO, it's what should happen. The current roster is set up to top out as a medicore team that might luckily reach the 2nd round one day.

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Old 01-25-2013, 07:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Like I said, for my part I get what you're saying, but I just wonder how likely it is for things to happen that way. A new GM comes in, decides to keep 2-3 players from the roster and get rid of everyone else, we suck for 3 years and get 3 top 5 picks, and then we have the core for a contender?
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Like I said, for my part I get what you're saying, but I just wonder how likely it is for things to happen that way. A new GM comes in, decides to keep 2-3 players from the roster and get rid of everyone else, we suck for 3 years and get 3 top 5 picks, and then we have the core for a contender?
Probably not very likely at all, unfortunately.

Look at Charlotte. From all reports when Rich Cho was hired there, he was going to get a long leash to rebuild properly and ownership would accept a couple losing seasons. Now there were those rumours of the Bobcats being interested in Rudy Gay (WTF). There is no way a GM who is rebuilding goes after Rudy Gay unless there is pressure from ownership to start winning. I envision the same thing probably happening with the Raptors.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Why I'm rooting for losses:

1) It gets Colangelo (and hopefully others) fired more quickly.

2) If you have to give up a lottery pick, this is the year to do it. I don't care whether they give up the 4th pick or the 13th. In fact, if they lose the 4th pick then it's even more embarassing for the management.

3) Maybe the Raptors get lucky and get into the top 3 this year. For a team so lacking in top-tier talent, I'll take a top 3 pick in any draft.

4) Colangelo gets fired sooner!

5) Making the playoffs and being slaughtered in the first round accompllishes nothing positive. In fact, it more than likely leads management/ownership to believe that this team is "close". Much like the year when they won the Atlantic division only because the rest of the East was horrendous. What happened afterwards? The Raptors played true to their talent level and never did anything significant. You don't build a "winning atmosphere" with 1st round exits! Those are meaningless for the most part.

6) A horrible year could be the sign that the Raptors need to do a proper rebuild and only look to keep certain young and/or cheap players. Basically only Valanciunas and maybe Davis and Ross.

7) COLANGELO GETS FIRED.


I agree with all of this.

When we started out of the gates rather poorly, I was a bit excited that we might get to keep our own pick this year. We've picked it up since then and I think we should just get it over with and give OKC the pick. I'm on the Andrew Wiggins bandwagon and I definitely want a shot at him next year.

The way I see it, BC's screwed up this franchise worse than Babcock did, and that's saying something. I'm also fine with sucking for a few years if it meant top draft picks and the chance at high end talent. Being in the type of market we are, it's increasingly difficult to lure elite talent in free agency. The draft is really the only way for a team like ours to improve.

I thought we finally had that chance after drafting Jonas, then with the then upcoming 2012 draft. Jonas plus one another top pick(Davis, Lillard, Beal, Kidd-Gilchrist, Barnes, Waiters) would have been a very nice place to start. Unfortunately, BC screwed that up. And on a team like ours, it's ridiculous that guys like Aaron Gray, Alan Anderson, Landy Fields, etc are seeing more playing time than Ed Davis or Terrence Ross. We're not going to do anything. Throw those guys out there and see what they can do. I'd rather have Ross out there launching jumpers in crunch time instead of Anderson. At least Ross will learn from it. Anderson's 30 and peaked.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by letshaveacorona
Dude seriously I know you have good intentions and a well thought out rebuild plan but youre about 2 years too late. Your plans dont reflect the strength or reality of the current Raptors team. This team as is can and mark my words will get you anywhere from 32-41 wins. Thats not bad enough to get you a top 5 pick so your plan although its great in theory and should have been followed 2 years ago its not realistic today. They say one star player can add 10 wins to your end of season total then if we did make a trade as per my previous posts this team becomes a 42-51 win team. Im by no means a mediocrity type thinker but ill take that type of team for awhile at least i can stop hearing all the jokes about how the Raps suck.

All i have to say about Demar DeRozan is look at the following clip:

http://youtu.be/FLgYmZH14K4

You should want this team to become championship calibre. That takes time and stars. You're settling for a team that MIGHT win a playoff round. While that might be awesome, considering how terrible this franchise has been, "annual second round exits" shouldn't be what a team aspires to.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

@rainin threes


Currently we have decent talent at every position. Anyone with an unbiased and rational opinion would most likely agree. What we dont have is a Stud, Star, Big Cheese, that 1A type player who in crunch time steps up and goes to war against the other team. We have a bunch of supporting cast type players or wanna be finishers. In basketball one of those players makes a huge difference to a team. Although it is preferential to add that player via the draft, here we go wait for it,,,,,,,IT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY. Many teams have traded for that type of player ala Memphis Grizzlies(Randolph), LA Lakers(Kobe Bryant, Howard, Gasol), NY Knicks(Carmelo), New Jersey Nets(Vince Carter, Deron Williams), LA Clippers(Chris Paul), Boston(Kevin Garnett). And these are only modern era trades if you want you can go back and see other star player who were traded.

You obviously havent followed my posts cuz I def not looking to settle for a fringe team. Let me explain myself with an analogy that maybe you and that dude who still has Rasho Fnn Nestorovic as his Avatar can understand. Its like Poker you know its a betting game with odds and percentages. The deeper the rounds go the more heavily invested you are. At some point you may think you have a weaker hand but your so heavily invested that you must call the next bet becasue of economies of scale. At the called bet point everything before is considered lost so your called bet could potentially win you a lot of money. If you lose well you know you play the odds and if you have the cojones to stick to the odds sooner or later your going to win.

My point is at THIS VERY POINT IN TIME it is not preferential to blow up this team. Tanking is not guarnteed position wise and nether is the draft. At that rate neither is trading for star player so nobody really knows thats why we dont get paid the big bucks. Blow up and rebuild or trade for star player. Both have upside draft long term 4-7 years out has higher returns you could argue assuming everything goes right. Assuming both plans work out mediocre meaning the star player only makes us a playoff team for the next 3-5 years with the occassional high and the draft works out just ok meaning we get a few top 5 picks but not that number 1 Lebron James talent you guys think were gonna get I would much rather choose the trade route and enjoy watching this team again and bring some respectability back here. If you can propose a better strategy that doesnt require stinking up the nba for the next 3-5 years, and HOPING THAT we might get the number 1 pick one of those years I will listen otherwise im too busy thining of ways to win.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:49 PM   #24
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by letshaveacorona
@rainin threes


Currently we have decent talent at every position. Anyone with an unbiased and rational opinion would most likely agree. What we dont have is a Stud, Star, Big Cheese, that 1A type player who in crunch time steps up and goes to war against the other team. We have a bunch of supporting cast type players or wanna be finishers. In basketball one of those players makes a huge difference to a team. Although it is preferential to add that player via the draft, here we go wait for it,,,,,,,IT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY. Many teams have traded for that type of player ala Memphis Grizzlies(Randolph), LA Lakers(Kobe Bryant, Howard, Gasol), NY Knicks(Carmelo), New Jersey Nets(Vince Carter, Deron Williams), LA Clippers(Chris Paul), Boston(Kevin Garnett). And these are only modern era trades if you want you can go back and see other star player who were traded.

You obviously havent followed my posts cuz I def not looking to settle for a fringe team. Let me explain myself with an analogy that maybe you and that dude who still has Rasho Fnn Nestorovic as his Avatar can understand. Its like Poker you know its a betting game with odds and percentages. The deeper the rounds go the more heavily invested you are. At some point you may think you have a weaker hand but your so heavily invested that you must call the next bet becasue of economies of scale. At the called bet point everything before is considered lost so your called bet could potentially win you a lot of money. If you lose well you know you play the odds and if you have the cojones to stick to the odds sooner or later your going to win.

My point is at THIS VERY POINT IN TIME it is not preferential to blow up this team. Tanking is not guarnteed position wise and nether is the draft. At that rate neither is trading for star player so nobody really knows thats why we dont get paid the big bucks. Blow up and rebuild or trade for star player. Both have upside draft long term 4-7 years out has higher returns you could argue assuming everything goes right. Assuming both plans work out mediocre meaning the star player only makes us a playoff team for the next 3-5 years with the occassional high and the draft works out just ok meaning we get a few top 5 picks but not that number 1 Lebron James talent you guys think were gonna get I would much rather choose the trade route and enjoy watching this team again and bring some respectability back here. If you can propose a better strategy that doesnt require stinking up the nba for the next 3-5 years, and HOPING THAT we might get the number 1 pick one of those years I will listen otherwise im too busy thining of ways to win.

Do you think this team is a star player trade away from being a championship contender? Because that's the only scenario that should be considered if you're going to mortgage your future to get one.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Raps are two players away from being contenters in my opinion.

Adding Rudy Gay or Josh Smith makes them a playoff team and puts them 1 player away possibly a beast of a PF from being contenders. Not champions but contenders which is at least headed in the right direction.

Theres and old saying it goes"build it, and they will come"

If the Raps aquire a star 3 and build a playoff worthy team other stars or vets will want to play here its that simple. Win and they will come lose and youll get laughed at its not rocket science dude.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by letshaveacorona
Win and they will come lose and youll get laughed at its not rocket science dude.

Quote:
Toronto Raptors 2006-07 Roster:

7 Andrea Bargnani
4 Chris Bosh
8 Jose Calderon
3 Juan Dixon
11 T.J. Ford
15 Jorge Garbajosa
14 Joey Graham
43 Kris Humphries
6 Luke Jackson
20 Fred Jones
2 Darrick Martin
12 Rasho Nesterovic
18 Anthony Parker
24 Morris Peterson
10 Uros Slokar
9 Pape Sow
1 P.J. Tucker

Quote:
Toronto Raptors 2007-08 Roster:

7 Andrea Bargnani
9 Maceo Baston
4 Chris Bosh
1 Primoz Brezec
8 Jose Calderon
20 Carlos Delfino
3 Juan Dixon
11 T.J. Ford
15 Jorge Garbajosa
14 Joey Graham
43 Kris Humphries
13 Linton Johnson
24 Jason Kapono
2 Darrick Martin
33 Jamario Moon
12 Rasho Nesterovic
18 Anthony Parker

Good point. In 2006-07 we came 1st in our division, made the playoffs, got bounced in the first round and were able to improve our team by signing Maceo Baston, Primoz Brezec, Linton Johnson, Jason Kapono and Jamario Moon.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

I guess you know it all seeing as you have historical data and a crystal ball perhaps you should interview for the GM spot.

2006 I mean we all thought that was a pretty good team back then. They won the division title. Looks like they brought back their core and added some fringe bench players to fill up practice spots and toughen up Bargnani ala Primoz Brzec. Maceo Baston was considered a high potential type guy i think i dunno i dont really care about 7 years ago. And I think Kapono was coming off some good seasons with the Heat and was at that time considered the best 3pt shooter fg% wise so I guess they brought him in as a specialist. They also added Delfino who was a young promising SG with international experience. No big trades or signings but remember they had the teachers pension plan to worry about. NO LUXURY TAX.

I get your point but its easy too look back now and criticize moves. Too easy thats why I dont do it.

Our Current Roster would go toe to toe with that divisional winning team any day of the week in my opinion. Thats with Bargnani sitting on the bench and no star player. And the teachers pension plan is no longer calling the shots today holding us back from going into the luxury tax like those years. Lots of differences bro between that situation and now but if you dont see I cant help you. Im not a big BC fan but I blame most of this teams misfortunes on ownerships misdirection and budgetary constraints.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

I don't disagree with your points, just pointing out that your previous post was flawed; winning doesn't ensure that players will sign here.

But I am, however, lucky to have a crystal ball here. Makes my life a lot easier. I'm already in talks with MLSE to replace Colangelo, so don't you worry about that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:37 PM   #29
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Winning does help but "winning" doesn't mean making a couple 1st round playoff appearances. That's not going to attract anyone. Having a strong core for the long-run that will get players thinking "If I join that team, they might make it to the Finals or conference finals".

The Raptors do not have that kind of core.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: Can someone explain to me...

Well they do now. lol

Lowry
Gay
Ross
DeRozan
Valanciunas

Memphis 2.0 excpet we aint no small market team and the teachers pension fund doesnt restrict us from going into luxury tax anymore thanks to Rogers who by the way just broke the bank for the Blue Jays anyone get my point here. Things are looking up.

1 player away can you guess which position??
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