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Old 01-27-2013, 12:32 AM   #31
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1
Makes sense. 1999-2004 was the slowest era of the last 25 years, therefore less possessions and better DRatings.

fixed it for you

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Old 01-27-2013, 01:59 AM   #32
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

^great post. shows how much tougher the defense is that kobe has to face then jordan. even still, kobe is getting it done in his 17th season
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:06 AM   #33
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Are their people that still believe a faster pace, higher league average PPG, etc. automatically means defenses of that era were weaker?
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:57 AM   #34
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
West probably said that in the regular season, but then the Playoffs happened and Kobe dominated the last 2 rounds of the Playoffs he was like ugh...nevermind.
Didn't West say Kobe was he greatest Laker ever the next year?
No, he said this in the playoffs (May 19th). And the retraction was a lot more about outrage/politics than Kobe outplaying LeBron, given that

a)LeBron played like a man possessed in those playoffs, yes even better than Kobe despite Kobe winning the title

b)The conviction with which Jerry West initially made these statements. Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKYyAC6PGvA

On more than one occassion he says "easily LeBron James" or "no question in my mind it's LeBron" - that doesn't sound like someone who's changing his mind in a week without some arm twisting.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:10 AM   #35
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
This was a reaction thread created because the Kobe Stan "Yao Ming's Foot" brought how Kobe was 3 assists away from passing Jordan.

YMF also went on type bullshit as usual, spawning this argument.

Bro, at least look at the ilk you roll with.
Don't understand how this isn't obvious to some people. Threads were made in the same day...
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Ne 1 - worst poster on this site ?
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
how mad does it make you that Wade is no where near regarded as great of a player as Kobe "Stringbean" Bryant?
And how does it feel that Wade's 2 of three finals performances are all better than anything Kobe has ever done? I dont need your or somebody's else opinion to tell me who is the better player. Wade is more pollished player than Kobe and he will always be.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:58 AM   #38
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Heat007, how mad does it make you that Wade is no where near regarded as great of a player as Kobe "Stringbean" Bryant?
I think he pretty mad tho?
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:27 AM   #39
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by selrahc
kobe playing through a much tougher defensive era

players are more athletic, coaches have better strategies, and zone defenses are allowed...

for jordan to have more than 2000 turnovers in such an easy era is astounding
Everything you said is true. But this era is made for perimeter players to excel. Anything to find the new Jordan. The rule changes ****ed over interior/perimeter defenders.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:57 AM   #40
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
LOL haters try soooooooo hard.

If Kobe has a longevity record that's positive haters say " well he played long enough he was bound to break it" or "longevity records mean squat"

But when Kobe has a longevity record that's negative those same haters are the first to point it out
When I read the post I was thinking that when Kobe breaks a positive record that was due to his longevity the Kobe lovers absolute crow about it, make a bunch of threads, constantly bring it up, etc. But when he breaks a negative record they are always using his longevity as an excuse as to why it should be swept under the rug.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:35 AM   #41
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
He breaks negative records years and years before he breaks the positive ones.

That's because he sucks in regards to being heavily overrated, and is just a chucking shotjacking fool who takes more shots than anyone in the league year to year. He has low basketball IQ, poor decision making on the floor, and isn't nearly as good as his stans make him out to be.

Stupid player - which is a direct reflection of his stans

He also holds the record for most all star games, tied for defensive first team records, and in four years will have the most points in NBA history.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:10 AM   #42
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1

In 2010

Kobe scored:

460 pts on layups/dunks
572 pts inside 10 ft
862 pts inside of 15 ft
439 pts from the FT line.

Total: 669 pts outside 15+ ft < 1,301 pts INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line.

That means 66% (2/3 of his pts) came inside of 15 ft & the FT line LOL!!

Carmelo (the alleged pure jump shooter) scored:

652 pts on dunks/layups
736 pts inside 10 ft
864 pts inside 15 ft
508 pts from the FT line
571 pts outside 15 f

Total: 1,372 of his total pts came inside 15 ft or the FT line (71% of his total pts)

D-Wade (who doesn't even have MJ's post game or jumper) scored:

762 pts on dunks/layups
894 pts inside 10 ft
996 pts inside 15 ft
534 pts from the FT line
515 pts from outside 15 ft

Total: 1,530 of his total pts came inside 15 ft or from the FT line (75% of his total pts)

I mean it's ridiculous how these new rules have made SO EASY for these guys to score inside..Tony Parker (a 6'1 pt guard) has led the league in pts scored in the paint TWICE!!

Tyriq Evans (a rookie in 2010) scored 714 pts on layups/dunks (84% of his total pts)

Durant scored 602 pts on layups/dunks (70% of his total pts)

LBJ scored 754 pts on layups/dunks (68% of his total pts)

Brandon Roy scored 346 pts on layups/dunks (63% of his total pts)

Joe Johnson scored 324 pts on layups/dunks (42% of his total pts)

The new rules MANUFACTURE perimeter super stars! It's MUCH EASIER for perimeter players to score today than in the Golden Era!

I mean the list of wing players scoring big time pts INSIDE 10-15 ft in tody's game is endless...

Darren Williams scored:

392 pts on layups/dunks
486 pts inside 10 ft
528 inside 15 ft
335 pts from the FT line
556 pts from outside 15 ft

Total: 863 of his total pts came INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line (61% of his total pts)

Dirk Nowitzki (not a great athlete & terrible foot speed) scored:

328 pts on layups/dunks
416 pts inside 10 ft
718 pts inside 15 ft
536 pts from the FT line
773 pts outside 15 ft

Total: 1,254 of his total pts came INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line (62% of his toal pts)

If today's pseudo zone defenses are SO DAMN HARD TO GET HIGH % SHOTS AGAINST, WHY are SO MANY of these "elite" wing guys scoring the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of their pts INSIDE of 15 ft? Can someone please explain why its harder today....because "The Mythical Zone Theory" is complete nonsense

In addition, the typical player nowadays generally dedicates more time to weight training, perhaps to the detriment of additional shooting drills. And never since the NBA added its 3-point line back in 1979-'80 have treys been hoisted more frequently by more pedestrian shooters, driving down shooting accuracy league-wide. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that Boston's Antoine Walker -- a post-up forward to be sure -- has attempted more three-pointers this season (196) than all but two players in the entire league.

Also factoring into the decline in offensive output is the increase in college underclassmen -- many of whom arrive at the "Next Level" ill-prepared with solid basketball foundations. In the five NBA Drafts between 1986 and 1990, 58 underclassmen declared themselves eligible. In the NBA Drafts from 1996 to 2000, the number rose to 153. Perhaps not coincidentally, three of the four-worst league-wide shooting seasons in history occurred in this span.

From a Laker Blog: The NBA will never admit to it publically, but zone defense was primarily legalized to contain Shaquille O'neal. Shaquille simply could not be guarded by one man, it was just not possible. It's a lopsided mismatch regardless of whoever is guarding him. Add Kobe Bryant to that team and it is plain to see that the league would be dominated for a long time to come. Therefor, in order to even out the playing field, the league legalized zone defense.

Yet since 2004 Shaq shot 60+ percent 5 times, 59 2 times, prior to this his high was .599 one time(Zone didn't stop Shaq's efficiency)

Zone Myth...as of Dec 22, 2005

Here's a look at the NBA's top five in scoring points in the paint (through Tuesday):

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Zone Defense Makes it harder to get into the mid to close range area for perimeter stars: From NBA.COM % of pts scored INSIDE of 15 ft or FT line 2010

Tyriq Evans (a rookie): 82%..714 pts on layups/dunks
D-Wade: 75%..762 pts on dunks/layups
Carmelo: 71%..652 pts on dunks/layups
Durant: 70%..602 pts on layups/dunks
LBJ: 68%..754 pts on layups/dunks
Kobe: 66%..460 pts on layups/dunks
B. Roy: 63%..346 pts on layups/dunks
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:17 AM   #43
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Despite the dip in 3-point percentage, overall scoring is up this season. The league is scoring more than 200 points per game (200.01 to be precise) for the first time since the 1994-95 season. But that's more about pace than offensive efficiency. At 95.2 possessions per team per 48 minutes, this is the fastest pace the league has played at in the last 10 years. Efficiency is actually down from last season as the league is scoring 104.2 points per 100 possessions, down from 105.4 in 2008-09.

Along with the dip in 3-point percentage, the mid-range game continues to fade. The percentage of mid-range points (points not scored at the line, in the paint or beyond the arc) is down to just 20.6 percent. Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season. Those baskets account for 41.7 percent of all points this season, up from 40.1 percent a year ago.(So much for this zone myth of keeping perimeter guys out of the lanes)

Scoring from the mid-range area isn't a trend that good offensive teams have. Chicago scores 26.9 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 27th offensively. Detroit scores 26.6 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 26th offensively. Dallas (25.2 percent, 10th) and Portland (24.9 percent, seventh) go against the grain, thanks to the shooting of Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge.


New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

“It’s more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball,” Thorn said of the change. “I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters.”

Thorn said the change was made because muscular defensive players had gotten the upper hand.

“My opinion is that the game had gone too much toward favoring strong players over skilled players,” Thorn said. “The NBA felt there was too much body, too much hand-checking, being used by defenders to the detriment of the game. There was a feeling that there was too much advantage for a defensive player who could merely use his strength to control the offensive player.”

The new rules interpretations have attempted to address that issue, Thorn said.

“If the refs perceive that a defender is bumping the cutter, or bumping a ball-handler, then they’ll blow their whistles.”

Blow their whistles is exactly what officials began doing in both the NBA and its Development League (where many nights officials were whistling a whopping 60 to 70 fouls a game).

This new way of calling became increasingly apparent with each regular-season game last year, and it really made an impression during the playoffs. Free from the physical challenge of defenders, offensive players found many more opportunities to attack the basket – and draw fouls.

“The good wing players – LeBron, Kobe, Arenas, Wade, Carter – shot a lot of free throws with the way the game is now called,” Thorn admitted.

The changes will not bring the end of defense as we know it, Thorn said. “The good defensive teams are still good. It’s just more difficult to cover those wing players, there’s no doubt about it.”

Also saw you making a comment about recovery and quickness Did it ever occur to you, that due to no handchecking, that these guys are allowed to display more of those qualities....handchecking forced you to turn u'r back to opponents....Stu Jackson what is that??? Oh spacing and dribble drive penetration have helped produce higher quality shots and given shooters more time???

NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

SJ: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:19 AM   #44
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:

"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."

Cuban got his wish and the already stringent anti-contact rules for perimeter play became even more strict. The unintended backlash ended up blowing up in his face:

"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.

Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span

Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:54 AM   #45
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Default Re: Career Turnovers: Kobe Bryant 3,576 Michael Jordan 2,924

It just proves that Kobe played in a much better/tougher defensive era(the toughest defensive era of all time) than Mike (weak ass defensive era..)

better/tougher defense = more turnover
weak defense = less turnover

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