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Old 02-06-2013, 10:23 PM   #16
miller-time
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
Yes they are random because the definition of scientific randomness is the quality of being unpredictable. That is the definition of random, not unfamiliarity of the forces and attractions.

I think he is trying to say that nothing is unpredictable if you know the underlying mechanisms, and therefore nothing is random?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

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Originally Posted by miller-time
I think he is trying to say that nothing is unpredictable if you know the underlying mechanisms, and therefore nothing is random?
I think he doesn't know what he's trying to say. He's bringing up random crap he learned in his intro to probability class and thinks it somehow coincides with God.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
Yes they are random because the definition of scientific randomness is the quality of being unpredictable. That is the definition of random, not unfamiliarity of the forces and attractions.

You are almost there.
The reason you can't predict it is because you are unaware and unable to calculate the forces acting.

You pretty much validated my opening statement "Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge"

The reason you can't predict is because you don't have enough knowledge or in scientific term, "data" to make a prediction.

In the situation of a roll of a dice roll. You call it random because you are not aware of the formulas and data going on behind the scene.

But theoritically, someone could predict every dice he rolls. You ask how?
If you calculated all the forces acting upon the roll.

The position of the dice in your hand.
The amount of pressure applied on the roll.
The precise angle the pressure is applied on the dice.
the duration of the pressure.
The overall pressure quantified.

force of impact,

The table,
Friction
Air resistance
The mass of the dice,
Gravity acting upon the dice.

etc.


if someone had the exact data on these forces acting on a dice. they would be able to predict every roll precisely with a 100% certainty.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Humans trying to wrap their heads around things they dont understand is the reason we have so many thousands of creator myths in the first place. Even the most reasonable ones require its followers to ignore their common sense. On a basic level a magical man in the sky makes no more sense than the world springing from a duck egg.

But people choose to believe both and many more it and there is no proof for or against any of it.

The people raised in a certain place tend to believe what the locals tell them as they grow up and act like people elsewhere are blind to the truth.

Its really pretty arrogant to me to assume that your team has it figured out because you had your particular absurd story pounded into you for 20 years.

Believe what you want and leave others out of it. Why hassle anyone?

I dont care what anyone thinks so long as they keep it to themselves.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
Yes they are random because the definition of scientific randomness is the quality of being unpredictable. That is the definition of random, not unfamiliarity of the forces and attractions.
I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random.

^intellect tbr
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.

But from what I know, there are events that occur in the quantum world that are truly random right? Without cause or predictability.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
But from what I know, there are events that occur in the quantum world that are truly random right? Without cause or predictability.
I'm not well versed in QM but I would assume so. I don't think true randomness exists as a system but a localized feature that take place in the context of many degrees of freedom. This would be determined within global constraints but have no local relation to other localized causal events which gives an appearance or maybe even is true randomness.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Humans trying to wrap their heads around things they dont understand is the reason we have so many thousands of creator myths in the first place. Even the most reasonable ones require its followers to ignore their common sense. On a basic level a magical man in the sky makes no more sense than the world springing from a duck egg.

But people choose to believe both and many more it and there is no proof for or against any of it.

The people raised in a certain place tend to believe what the locals tell them as they grow up and act like people elsewhere are blind to the truth.

Its really pretty arrogant to me to assume that your team has it figured out because you had your particular absurd story pounded into you for 20 years.

Believe what you want and leave others out of it. Why hassle anyone?

I dont care what anyone thinks so long as they keep it to themselves.

well first of all the view that god is a guy holding a magic wand sitting in the sky aka a sky daddy couldnt be much further from the truth.

the true idea of a creator has nothinng to do with magic.
magic is basically equivalent to randomness.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Oh yay, religion troll Bladers is back!
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.

Exactly yet the whole view atheists have on the universe is that its random.

Now we move on to QM, but we know so little about it, even the little we know i can assure you there is no trace of true randomness.

I made this thread to point out that when we say random or chance. as in "the universe is random or the universe is based on chance" we are just displaying our lack of knowledge concerning it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladers
You are almost there.
The reason you can't predict it is because you are unaware and unable to calculate the forces acting.

You pretty much validated my opening statement "Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge"

The reason you can't predict is because you don't have enough knowledge or in scientific term, "data" to make a prediction.

In the situation of a roll of a dice roll. You call it random because you are not aware of the formulas and data going on behind the scene.

But theoritically, someone could predict every dice he rolls. You ask how?
If you calculated all the forces acting upon the roll.

The position of the dice in your hand.
The amount of pressure applied on the roll.
The precise angle the pressure is applied on the dice.
the duration of the pressure.
The overall pressure quantified.

force of impact,

The table,
Friction
Air resistance
The mass of the dice,
Gravity acting upon the dice.

etc.


if someone had the exact data on these forces acting on a dice. they would be able to predict every roll precisely with a 100% certainty.

So by taking out all the variables that effect randomness it's no longer random? Can you do that with everything?
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladers
Now we move on to QM, but we know so little about it, even the little we know i can assure you there is no trace of true randomness.

You can assure us based on what? How little we know about it?
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

So every time I roll dice, an omnipotent being is deciding the rolls? Choosing the draws for every lottery? Not randomness? Seems like a lot of micromanaging. If god existed and I were him, I would create a mechanism for randomness to take some of the work off my shoulders.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP3MVP
So every time I roll dice, an omnipotent being is deciding the rolls? Choosing the draws for every lottery? Not randomness? Seems like a lot of micromanaging. If god existed and I were him, I would create a mechanism for randomness to take some of the work off my shoulders.

No the laws of physics decides where it roles. Which means that at the point of release the outcome is already determined and is therefore not random. The outcome is predictable.

So Bladers, under this paradigm, how do you feel about free will? Can it exist in this deterministic universe?
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