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02-06-2013, 10:25 PM   #16
Hazard
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by miller-time I think he is trying to say that nothing is unpredictable if you know the underlying mechanisms, and therefore nothing is random?
I think he doesn't know what he's trying to say. He's bringing up random crap he learned in his intro to probability class and thinks it somehow coincides with God.

02-06-2013, 10:31 PM   #17
You hear that?

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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver Yes they are random because the definition of scientific randomness is the quality of being unpredictable. That is the definition of random, not unfamiliarity of the forces and attractions.

You are almost there.
The reason you can't predict it is because you are unaware and unable to calculate the forces acting.

You pretty much validated my opening statement "Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge"

The reason you can't predict is because you don't have enough knowledge or in scientific term, "data" to make a prediction.

In the situation of a roll of a dice roll. You call it random because you are not aware of the formulas and data going on behind the scene.

But theoritically, someone could predict every dice he rolls. You ask how?
If you calculated all the forces acting upon the roll.

The position of the dice in your hand.
The amount of pressure applied on the roll.
The precise angle the pressure is applied on the dice.
the duration of the pressure.
The overall pressure quantified.

force of impact,

The table,
Friction
Air resistance
The mass of the dice,
Gravity acting upon the dice.

etc.

if someone had the exact data on these forces acting on a dice. they would be able to predict every roll precisely with a 100% certainty.

 02-06-2013, 10:37 PM #18 Kblaze8855 Titles are overrated     Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: I love me some me. Posts: 16,981 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge Humans trying to wrap their heads around things they dont understand is the reason we have so many thousands of creator myths in the first place. Even the most reasonable ones require its followers to ignore their common sense. On a basic level a magical man in the sky makes no more sense than the world springing from a duck egg. But people choose to believe both and many more it and there is no proof for or against any of it. The people raised in a certain place tend to believe what the locals tell them as they grow up and act like people elsewhere are blind to the truth. Its really pretty arrogant to me to assume that your team has it figured out because you had your particular absurd story pounded into you for 20 years. Believe what you want and leave others out of it. Why hassle anyone? I dont care what anyone thinks so long as they keep it to themselves.
02-06-2013, 10:56 PM   #19
shlver
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver Yes they are random because the definition of scientific randomness is the quality of being unpredictable. That is the definition of random, not unfamiliarity of the forces and attractions.
I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.

02-06-2013, 10:59 PM   #20
ace23
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random.

^intellect tbr

02-06-2013, 11:04 PM   #21
miller-time
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.

But from what I know, there are events that occur in the quantum world that are truly random right? Without cause or predictability.

02-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #22
shlver
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by miller-time But from what I know, there are events that occur in the quantum world that are truly random right? Without cause or predictability.
I'm not well versed in QM but I would assume so. I don't think true randomness exists as a system but a localized feature that take place in the context of many degrees of freedom. This would be determined within global constraints but have no local relation to other localized causal events which gives an appearance or maybe even is true randomness.

02-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #23
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 Humans trying to wrap their heads around things they dont understand is the reason we have so many thousands of creator myths in the first place. Even the most reasonable ones require its followers to ignore their common sense. On a basic level a magical man in the sky makes no more sense than the world springing from a duck egg. But people choose to believe both and many more it and there is no proof for or against any of it. The people raised in a certain place tend to believe what the locals tell them as they grow up and act like people elsewhere are blind to the truth. Its really pretty arrogant to me to assume that your team has it figured out because you had your particular absurd story pounded into you for 20 years. Believe what you want and leave others out of it. Why hassle anyone? I dont care what anyone thinks so long as they keep it to themselves.

well first of all the view that god is a guy holding a magic wand sitting in the sky aka a sky daddy couldnt be much further from the truth.

the true idea of a creator has nothinng to do with magic.
magic is basically equivalent to randomness.

 02-06-2013, 11:32 PM #24 Jackass18 The Iron Price     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Carcosa Posts: 10,626 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge Oh yay, religion troll Bladers is back!
02-06-2013, 11:40 PM   #25
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver I think I'm wrong here. If we're talking true randomness; then no they are not random. They have distinct causal event chains as Bladers posted.

Exactly yet the whole view atheists have on the universe is that its random.

Now we move on to QM, but we know so little about it, even the little we know i can assure you there is no trace of true randomness.

I made this thread to point out that when we say random or chance. as in "the universe is random or the universe is based on chance" we are just displaying our lack of knowledge concerning it.

02-06-2013, 11:42 PM   #26
Jackass18
The Iron Price

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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bladers You are almost there. The reason you can't predict it is because you are unaware and unable to calculate the forces acting. You pretty much validated my opening statement "Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge" The reason you can't predict is because you don't have enough knowledge or in scientific term, "data" to make a prediction. In the situation of a roll of a dice roll. You call it random because you are not aware of the formulas and data going on behind the scene. But theoritically, someone could predict every dice he rolls. You ask how? If you calculated all the forces acting upon the roll. The position of the dice in your hand. The amount of pressure applied on the roll. The precise angle the pressure is applied on the dice. the duration of the pressure. The overall pressure quantified. force of impact, The table, Friction Air resistance The mass of the dice, Gravity acting upon the dice. etc. if someone had the exact data on these forces acting on a dice. they would be able to predict every roll precisely with a 100% certainty.

So by taking out all the variables that effect randomness it's no longer random? Can you do that with everything?

02-06-2013, 11:51 PM   #27
miller-time
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bladers Now we move on to QM, but we know so little about it, even the little we know i can assure you there is no trace of true randomness.

You can assure us based on what? How little we know about it?

 02-07-2013, 12:02 AM #28 CP3MVP soon     Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 215 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge So every time I roll dice, an omnipotent being is deciding the rolls? Choosing the draws for every lottery? Not randomness? Seems like a lot of micromanaging. If god existed and I were him, I would create a mechanism for randomness to take some of the work off my shoulders.
02-07-2013, 12:06 AM   #29
miller-time
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by CP3MVP So every time I roll dice, an omnipotent being is deciding the rolls? Choosing the draws for every lottery? Not randomness? Seems like a lot of micromanaging. If god existed and I were him, I would create a mechanism for randomness to take some of the work off my shoulders.

No the laws of physics decides where it roles. Which means that at the point of release the outcome is already determined and is therefore not random. The outcome is predictable.

So Bladers, under this paradigm, how do you feel about free will? Can it exist in this deterministic universe?

02-07-2013, 12:08 AM   #30
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jackass18 So by taking out all the variables that effect randomness it's no longer random? Can you do that with everything?

Well those variables do not really "affect", "consists" or "constitutes" randomness because I wholeheartedly believe true randomness does not exist.

Those variables are causes and effects. If you can quantify all the causes and effects, you can disrobe the mystery out of anything.

For example basketball. Can someone make any shot in any variation and situation bearing the human body limitation?

Yes. Its the same principle as dice rolls, as long as you are aware of most of the forces that are in play and can control them. Why not? You can achieve a definite high amount of accuracy if not 100%.

In the case of dice rolls, something like:

1 - You need a smart glove (we have those today), it records pressure applied and where.

2 - Smart dice that can record pressure applied to it, its position, drop speed, roll speed, etc.

2 - Smart table that also records pressure for initial impact.

4 - A high speed camera watching the roll and all of this hooked up to a super computer running generic algorithms, computing all the variable.

You can produce an program through trial and error that can accurately predict every roll of dice in advance.

Plausible? Yes.
Possible? Yes.

If someone came 100 years from the future. This feat would be easy.

Last edited by Bladers : 02-07-2013 at 12:22 AM.

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