Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge
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02-07-2013, 12:08 AM   #31
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jackass18 So by taking out all the variables that effect randomness it's no longer random? Can you do that with everything?

Well those variables do not really "affect", "consists" or "constitutes" randomness because I wholeheartedly believe true randomness does not exist.

Those variables are causes and effects. If you can quantify all the causes and effects, you can disrobe the mystery out of anything.

For example basketball. Can someone make any shot in any variation and situation bearing the human body limitation?

Yes. Its the same principle as dice rolls, as long as you are aware of most of the forces that are in play and can control them. Why not? You can achieve a definite high amount of accuracy if not 100%.

In the case of dice rolls, something like:

1 - You need a smart glove (we have those today), it records pressure applied and where.

2 - Smart dice that can record pressure applied to it, its position, drop speed, roll speed, etc.

2 - Smart table that also records pressure for initial impact.

4 - A high speed camera watching the roll and all of this hooked up to a super computer running generic algorithms, computing all the variable.

You can produce an program through trial and error that can accurately predict every roll of dice in advance.

Plausible? Yes.
Possible? Yes.

If someone came 100 years from the future. This feat would be easy.

Last edited by Bladers : 02-07-2013 at 12:22 AM.

02-07-2013, 12:09 AM   #32
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by miller-time No the laws of physics decides where it roles. Which means that at the point of release the outcome is already determined and is therefore not random. The outcome is predictable.

Exactly couldn't have said it any better myself.

02-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #33
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by miller-time So Bladers, under this paradigm, how do you feel about free will? Can it exist in this deterministic universe?

Think of it like this. Free will is your point of release or right before it.
No one determines your point of release but you.
The breeding you do before you let a dice rip is your free will.

Last edited by Bladers : 02-07-2013 at 12:16 AM.

02-07-2013, 12:34 AM   #34
shlver
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bladers Exactly yet the whole view atheists have on the universe is that its random. Now we move on to QM, but we know so little about it, even the little we know i can assure you there is no trace of true randomness. I made this thread to point out that when we say random or chance. as in "the universe is random or the universe is based on chance" we are just displaying our lack of knowledge concerning it.
Or we choose to be ignorant of that knowledge to make a system behave like a random event. For all intents and purposes, I would say the dice roll is random. Either by inability to constrain degrees of freedom(knowing all physical details of the dice roll) or by choice(throwing it faster and spinning it harder), it is essentially random to us by the expansion of the constraints of the system. This whole discussion about the "truly random" quality of an event is useless without context within the global constraints of a system.

Last edited by shlver : 02-07-2013 at 12:37 AM.

02-07-2013, 12:50 AM   #35
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shlver Or we choose to be ignorant of that knowledge to make a system behave like a random event. For all intents and purposes, I would say the dice roll is random. Either by inability to constrain degrees of freedom(knowing all physical details of the dice roll) or by choice(throwing it faster and spinning it harder), it is essentially random to us by the expansion of the constraints of the system. This whole discussion about the "truly random" quality of an event is useless without context within the global constraints of a system.

No matter how fast or hard you spin or roll a dice, it can all be quantified and recorded. But you are right we do choose to be ignorant. A dangerous stance to say the least.

02-07-2013, 12:58 AM   #36
shlver
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bladers No matter how fast or hard you spin or roll a dice, it can all be quantified and recorded. But you are right we do choose to be ignorant. A dangerous stance to say the least.
That's not the point. The point is you can make the dice roll system behave deterministic or random by manipulating global constraints. We can ignore physical details and choose to expand the constraints so it behaves more like a random event. You can agonize over if anything is a truly random event but it is useless without the contextual background of global constraints.

02-07-2013, 01:24 AM   #37
miller-time
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bladers Think of it like this. Free will is your point of release or right before it. No one determines your point of release but you. The breeding you do before you let a dice rip is your free will.

That is not entirely true though. Studies have shown that choices and actions can be made before the conscious brain is aware of them. The point of release is already decided upon before you actually realize you've "made a decision." Although actions can be cancelled or changed if there is enough time.

02-07-2013, 03:57 AM   #38
Lebowsky
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by miller-time You can assure us based on what? How little we know about it?
Of course not, it's actually based on the nothing he knows about it.

 02-07-2013, 05:07 AM #39 dunksby ISH's Scribbler     Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 9,179 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge Well I don't believe in god and I don't believe in true randomness, from my own experience I have already come to the conclusion that nothing is random and everything happens the way they do because certain forces and elements affected them. Just because results are unpredictable to my eyes I'm not gonna be so arrogant as to dismiss it as random. So tell me how are you going to prove to me that god exists through your original argument.
02-07-2013, 07:14 AM   #40
SilkkTheShocker
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dunksby Well I don't believe in god and I don't believe in true randomness, from my own experience I have already come to the conclusion that nothing is random and everything happens the way they do because certain forces and elements affected them. Just because results are unpredictable to my eyes I'm not gonna be so arrogant as to dismiss it as random. So tell me how are you going to prove to me that god exists through your original argument.

Have fun burning in Hell.

02-07-2013, 07:29 AM   #41
dunksby
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SilkkTheShocker Have fun burning in Hell.
All the kool kids do it

02-07-2013, 10:59 AM   #42
Know what im sayin?

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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SilkkTheShocker Have fun burning in Hell.

So an all knowing, all powerful, and "perfect" deity sends people to eternal damnation if they don't believe he exist.

Damn sounds kind of childish.

Your religion is usually based off the community your born into. So if a child is born into a community where they dont beleieve in the same "god" as you, and that child never learns about your god, so if that child dies at say 12 years old before he ever had a chance to experience any other culture but his own, then that child's soul is is damned for enternity

Seems fair

 02-07-2013, 11:13 AM #43 HardwoodLegend The Magical T-Mac     Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: The Rec Center Posts: 3,686 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge The notion that someone's trip to hell is partially dependent on whether or not they believe in this so-called benevolent, forgiving and loving entity is absurd. There have been many different versions of "God" throughout the years that collide with one another, so this already proves humankind's propensity to invent a story about our origin. A benevolent, forgiving and loving entity would punish you for having some doubts and/or confusion about which religion to blindly follow when it's been proven that some of them HAVE to be fabricated lies? Not making the decision to cling to whatever code of belief because of what simply "sounds good and true"? So our eternal fates are essentially a game of choosing the right door this floating man in the sky is hiding behind? how can anyone have faith in this nonsense? If there is a god, it's Thomas Jefferson's god. A god that rewards you for using your reason and critical thinking skills you were endowed with.
 02-07-2013, 11:52 AM #44 crisoner 10 plus years on ISH     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Californications Posts: 12,458 Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge So baby Jesus in a blue tuxedo with nice white clean shoes knows what the cards are in the deck? Am I following this right?
02-07-2013, 02:49 PM   #45
Blue&Orange
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Re: Atheists - Randomness is just a way to quantify lack of knowledge

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Hazard Spread the news this dipshit just figured it all out.
i'm going to have to rep you

Last edited by Blue&Orange : 02-07-2013 at 02:51 PM.

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