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Old 02-14-2013, 04:18 AM   #211
LeBird
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
There's simply no way a rookie Bird was anywhere near solely responsible for that 12.15 SRS turaround. Hell, not even prime Bird comes close to being anywhere near that valuable - or any player for that matter.

Also, you don't really understand Jordan or Lebron's game very well if you think that Lebron is the more transferable or adjustable player. Jordan's all time great off ball play would allow him to fit in on almost any team. Lebron - no offense to one of the best players ever - is probably one of the least transferable superstars that I've seen since I started watching basketball. This is probably Lebron's single biggest weakness as an all time great, and it's something I've discussed in depth on other boards. Up until this year, and even this year to an extent, Lebron has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Until he really learns to play off the ball and within the flow of an offense, it's always going to be that way.

Bird is a different story. Bird really could fit in almost anywhere I'd imagine, but so could Jordan. Jordan's defense and off ball play are a big reason for that.

We've disagreed on this (and many other things) in the past so its no surprise. Your overrating of Jordan's off the ball ability is quite humorous. How many players shoot more than Jordan per game? How many non-PG players dominate the ball as much as Jordan? You talk about Jordan's off the ball skills in terms of his ability to make plays when he doesn't have the ball. My point is that unless he is the overwhelming main focus of the side when attacking he can't adjust.

And whilst Lebron acts as a defacto PG at times he is a legit play-maker and not someone who offloads when he can't drive to the basket.

But yeh, Lebron who can basically guard all positions (and play them) who is his team's #1 passer, #1 scorer and #1 rebounder is very one-dimensional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
he only played 2 full seasons before he started playing with Pippen and Grant and in his first winning season with them they only played 20 mpg.

I swear some people act like Pippen saved Jordan from becoming Stephon Marbury.

How many seasons did the aforementioned players take before their teams turned into contenders?

Yeah, exactly.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:55 AM   #212
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
We've disagreed on this (and many other things) in the past so its no surprise. Your overrating of Jordan's off the ball ability is quite humorous. How many players shoot more than Jordan per game? How many non-PG players dominate the ball as much as Jordan? You talk about Jordan's off the ball skills in terms of his ability to make plays when he doesn't have the ball. My point is that unless he is the overwhelming main focus of the side when attacking he can't adjust.

And whilst Lebron acts as a defacto PG at times he is a legit play-maker and not someone who offloads when he can't drive to the basket.

But yeh, Lebron who can basically guard all positions (and play them) who is his team's #1 passer, #1 scorer and #1 rebounder is very one-dimensional.

Shooting the ball alot doesn't mean someone is ball dominant.

Lebron can't guard all positions. He can guard one more position then Jordan can. Lebron's ability to guard to centers is so grossly overexaggerated.

And there's no evidence that Jordan couldn't play with another great player and that he couldn't adjust to someone like that. Its just that there was no reason for him to adjust to that level. And although Lebron isn't as aggressive of a scorer as Jordan, that doesn't mean he's easier to adjust to, in fact in some ways, you can say he's harder to.

From what we've seen, unlike Jordan, Lebron actually has to be BOTH his team's #1 scorer and #1 passer. The one season where it seemed like he was splitting one of those duties with someone, scoring with Wade in 2011, it caused so much confusion between the two and ultimately led to arguably the worse Finals ever by a superstar. Once they established that someone had to be clearly defined as their primary scorer, it was Wade that took the step back, not Lebron despite the fact that he was clearly their best passer and could've just assumed that role. Its not a coincidence that both Wade and Bosh have taken a step back individually the last 2 years, and the Heat have been more successful as a result.

If Lebron was in Jordan's place, Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been able to play that point forward and wouldn't have flourished offensively as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
How many seasons did the aforementioned players take before their teams turned into contenders?

Yeah, exactly.

Bird, Lebron, and Russell?

Russell played in a 8 team league, so he should have a bigger impact on the league then on a 25-30 team league. Plus, the Celtics were the 2nd best team in the league the year before anyway, and had the current MVP.

Lebron? His teams followed the same trajectory as Jordan's in the beginning. They weren't really contenders until about his 6th season like Jordan's as well. Sure, they made the Finals in 07, but that had much more to do with an extremely weak conference. Switch the 07 Cavs and the 88 Bulls, and the 88 Bulls are probably making the Finals as well while the 07 Cavs are probably losing in the 2nd round.

Bird? Even with the turnaround, you can easily argue that Bird had a better starting point to work because they had more established vets, they had the same coach for the entire season and didn't have any significant roster changes like the previous season which somewhat overstates the turnaround, and Red Auerbach was their GM and leader of that organization. With that said, if you want to say Bird was a faster learner and better team player earlier on, I'm not going to argue.

Its this type of talk about Jordan that is really stupid. A player's first 2-3 seasons when he's in questionable situations anyway doesn't define someone, especially when he won 6 titles later on. This idea that they were only improving because they got Pippen is really laughable. Teams led by transcedent young phenoms usually improve anyway as that young phenom improves and matures anyway. They were going to improve that year without Pippen's 20 mpg regardless. And its really easy to say other players led their teams to contending earlier on without providing any context. Out of all the GOAT level players, only Jordan and Lebron played their first few years in as bad of a situation.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:03 PM   #213
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
But yeh, Lebron who can basically guard all positions (and play them) who is his team's #1 passer, #1 scorer and #1 rebounder is very one-dimensional.

You're misinterpreting what I've written. I didn't call him one dimensional - he's anything but that - I said his game is less adjustable than Jordan and Birds, which is true.

Jordan or Bird for instance would be a much better fit than James on the current Heat as neither would hinder Wade's game by forcing him to play off ball, in a position he's clearly not as comfortable with. The same would be true for any of the teams with great PGs or ball dominant SGs: Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, Thunder, Spurs, Clippers, Cavs, ect.

Lebron is probably at his best when surrounded by good off ball players, shooters, defenders, and rebounders, and though he's improved his off ball play significantly these past couple of years, he still has trouble fitting in(without hindering)with great ball handlers.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:25 PM   #214
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

[quote]Its this type of talk about Jordan that is really stupid. A player's first 2-3 seasons when he's in questionable situations anyway doesn't define someone, especially when he won 6 titles later on. This idea that they were only improving because they got Pippen is really laughable. Teams led by transcedent young phenoms usually improve anyway as that young phenom improves and matures anyway. They were going to improve that year without Pippen's 20 mpg regardless. And its really easy to say other players led their teams to contending earlier on without providing any context. Out of all the GOAT level players, only Jordan and Lebron played their first few years in as bad of a situation.****[quote]


I dont think anyone is even remotely trying to imply Pippen was the only reason for the Bulls early success. The point is they did improve and Pippen was a part of that. And its a response to posters trying to preach this nonsense that Jordan was the sole reason for the Bulls improvement.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:42 PM   #215
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

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Old 02-22-2013, 07:39 PM   #216
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
How many players shoot more than Jordan per game?

This graphic says it all:



Quote:
How many seasons did the aforementioned players take before their teams turned into contenders?

Great question. Let's define "contender" as at least making the conference finals.

Kareem: 1
Russell: 1
Wilt: 1
Bird: 1
Magic: 1
Duncan: 1
Shaq: 2
Hakeem: 2
Jordan: 4

Which one is not like the others?

Quote:
Lebron? His teams followed the same trajectory as Jordan's in the beginning. They weren't really contenders until about his 6th season like Jordan's as well.

Lebron came out of high school...Still, let's compare his team's improvement straight up with Jordan's:

Cleveland

Before Lebron: 17 wins
After Lebron: 35, 42, 50, 50 (NBA finals)

Chicago

Before Jordan: 27 wins
After Jordan: 38, 30 (9-9 with MJ), 40, 50

Are these really similar? One team reached the NBA finals in year 4 while the other didn't get past the 1st round until year 4. Moreover, Lebron came out of high school so one would assume his impact would be less than Jordan's, if the claims made about Jordan are accurate...

The "weak conference" excuse is a common one from MJ partisans in this comparison, but how strong was the 88' East? In 1988 only 1 Eastern team won more than 54 games, only 2 won more than 50 and only 4 more than 42. Not exactly a competitive conference...The 2007 East was weak too, but it did have the Pistons, who were in the midst of their run of 5 straight appearances in at least the ECF.

Saying Jordan had an unusually bad situation is a bit misleading. All these guys entered bad or not-so-great situations, except for Magic. After all, they were all very high picks. Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team; had them at 56 wins and the conference finals as a rookie. Wilt's team was 32-40 before him, Bird's had 29 wins, Shaq's 20, and so on. The big difference is, well, those players managed to improve their teams by much more than +11 like Jordan did as a rookie.

The same trend exists when you take these players away later in their career. The Celtics without Bird could not play 0.500 ball, the Lakers without Magic barely did so, the Celtics went from champs to missing the playoffs without Russell, Orlando was not heard from for over a decade after Shaq, and so on. Jordan left and his team still nearly won the #1 seed.
Cleveland without Lebron?

As to Pippen's role, look at the win totals for Chicago: 27 pre-MJ, 38, 30, 40, 50, 47. Not exactly impressive...

Here are Chicago's win totals in the five seasons after Pippen became an all-star in 1990: 55, 61, 67, 57, 55 (without Mike).

The numbers speak for themselves.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:36 PM   #217
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
This graphic says it all:





Great question. Let's define "contender" as at least making the conference finals.

Kareem: 1
Russell: 1
Wilt: 1

You can't compare the immediate impact a player in an 8-14 team league would have on his team vs. a player in an 23-29 team league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Bird: 1

I've already addressed this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Magic: 1
Duncan: 1
Shaq: 2
Hakeem: 2
Jordan: 4

Magic had Kareem, Duncan had Robinson, Shaq had Penny, Hakeem had Sampson, i.e. all HOF players or at least someone that was playing at a HOF level and probably would've made it if it weren't for injuries (Penny). How is this even comparable?

If you want to encompass Jordan's career into just his first few seasons, go ahead and use that idiotic approach. You wouldn't be the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Lebron came out of high school

So what? He was a transcedent talent right away and was a foundation established that his team could start building around right away.

By the way, if age matters now, how come we don't mention that Bird was older as a rookie then most usually were? At his debut, he was 2 months shy of 23 while Jordan 4 months shy of 22. Thats a 1 year, 2 month difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
...Still, let's compare his team's improvement straight up with Jordan's:

Cleveland

Before Lebron: 17 wins
After Lebron: 35, 42, 50, 50 (NBA finals)

Chicago

Before Jordan: 27 wins
After Jordan: 38, 30 (9-9 with MJ), 40, 50

According to this logic, Wizards Jordan was better then rookie Jordan and more comparable to rookie Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Are these really similar? One team reached the NBA finals in year 4 while the other didn't get past the 1st round until year 4. Moreover, Lebron came out of high school so one would assume his impact would be less than Jordan's, if the claims made about Jordan are accurate...

The "weak conference" excuse is a common one from MJ partisans in this comparison, but how strong was the 88' East? In 1988 only 1 Eastern team won more than 54 games, only 2 won more than 50 and only 4 more than 42. Not exactly a competitive conference...The 2007 East was weak too, but it did have the Pistons, who were in the midst of their run of 5 straight appearances in at least the ECF.

How competitive a conference is isn't determined by just the top 2-3 teams. From 85-88, the average amount of wins per Eastern Conference team in each season was 42, 42, 42, 42, and from 04-07 it was 37, 39, 39, 39. Thats a pretty big difference. From 85-88, the East was above the league average which is always 41, while they were below that from 04-07. And either way, the 2 teams ahead of the Bulls in 88 were better then the 1 team ahead of the Cavs in 07. That can easily make the difference between one team getting eliminated in the 2nd round and another team making the Finals. Do we really think the 88 Bulls wouldn't beat the 41-41 Wizards and Nets ? And its completely possible that the 88 Bulls would've beaten the 07 Pistons who after Larry Brown always got complacent at the end of the playoffs and didn't really have the hunger to outlast teams that just wanted it more. Now, do we really think the 07 Cavs beat the 88 Pistons and then the 88 Celtics to get to the Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Saying Jordan had an unusually bad situation is a bit misleading. All these guys entered bad or not-so-great situations, except for Magic. After all, they were all very high picks. Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team; had them at 56 wins and the conference finals as a rookie. Wilt's team was 32-40 before him, Bird's had 29 wins, Shaq's 20, and so on. The big difference is, well, those players managed to improve their teams by much more than +11 like Jordan did as a rookie.

The same trend exists when you take these players away later in their career. The Celtics without Bird could not play 0.500 ball, the Lakers without Magic barely did so, the Celtics went from champs to missing the playoffs without Russell, Orlando was not heard from for over a decade after Shaq, and so on. Jordan left and his team still nearly won the #1 seed.
Cleveland without Lebron?

As to Pippen's role, look at the win totals for Chicago: 27 pre-MJ, 38, 30, 40, 50, 47. Not exactly impressive...

Here are Chicago's win totals in the five seasons after Pippen became an all-star in 1990: 55, 61, 67, 57, 55 (without Mike).

The numbers speak for themselves.

Whoever said Jordan had an unusually bad situation? I didn't. I've mostly said that it was pretty normal in comparison to most other superstars.

The numbers don't speak for themselves. They speak for the idiotic, shallow, black-and-white arguments that people like you continuously use where a player's value is dictated by how big the drop off is for his team when they aren't playing. For you to bring up all those numbers means you probably haven't read the whole thread and/or you're just ignoring the numerous times in the past when people shut down this dumb argument you've used by showing how ridiculously stupid and unintelligent it is and how much this argument lacks greater thinking and depth.

All I'll say is according to that stupid logic of yours, Michael Jordan was a better player in 2002 then he was in 1985 and 1993, Magic Johnson was a better player in 1996 then he was in 1981, Mo Williams and Vince Carter were two of the absolute best players in the league in 2009, the Lakers from 00-02 were a better team without Kobe Bryant, Lebron had a better supporting cast in 2009 and 2010 then he did in 2011, Kobe had a better supporting cast in 2006 and 2007 then he has in 2013, Dwight Howard who basically destroyed his locker room in 2012 was a more valuable player then Derrick Rose who's team didn't really lose anything more when he was out, James Harden and Serge Ibaka are better players then Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, and so many other ridiculously stupid things to claim. But go ahead, keep using this stupid logic that says all the above and disagrees with many smart NBA people.

Last edited by guy : 02-24-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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