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Old 02-08-2013, 02:45 AM   #31
Kovach
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

No, it is not possible for a player to win a championship by himself. It is possible to win 60+ games and reach the finals, as repeated ad nauseum by fans of a certain player, but not win.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
Pippen learning curve as many think is not constantly UPWARDS in reality.

1990 all star reserve...shows promise of becoming a very good SUPPORT player.
1991. regressed !
1992. all-star STARTER. coming of age. Becomes top 5 NBA players.
1993. regressed STATs wise regular season.
1994. Best season STATs & MVP voting & DPOY voting
1995. Regressed AGAIN stats. Poor leadership. Bulls a .500 team MJ CAME BACK & everything is forgotten.
... Scottie Pippen actually increased in PPG, RPG, and APG from 90' to 91' so he actually did not "regress". I love how you just say 'regressed" instead of actually adding substance to your statement. Here's a crazy thought. How about you actually value a player based on his impact and effectiveness on the court instead of a reserve spot in a meaningless game in February. And no, just because you don't make that all star game doesn't mean you're as good as Horrace Grant. You can't possibly be this stupid.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderRight
... Scottie Pippen actually increased in PPG, RPG, and APG from 90' to 91' so he actually did not "regress". I love how you just say 'regressed" instead of actually adding substance to your statement. Here's a crazy thought. How about you actually value a player based on his impact and effectiveness on the court instead of a reserve spot in a meaningless game in February. And no, just because you don't make that all star game doesn't mean you're as good as Horrace Grant. You can't possibly be this stupid.

makes no sense.

Pip is an all star reserve a year ago. Then Pip looses the reserve position despite increasing his PPG, APG, RPG.

maybe bulls played lot more OT, 2OT, 3OT games in 1991 so Pippen stats maybe inflated in 1991.

anyways, thats not the argument. 1992 Pippen >> 1991 Pippen who was just a GOOD player like NYK's OAKLEY or CHI's GRANT which could've been replaced & MJ still beat LAL in 6 games in 1991 finals.

Point is. MJ wins 1991 ring without Pippen easily.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
Faaking Kobe as a lone all-star on LAL roster cound'nt even make it to POs.or if he did, lost the series being up 3-1
Kobe made it to the NBA Finals without an all-star or all-nba teammate on his team besides himself in 2008.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:05 AM   #35
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

1991, in my opinion, was Pippen's true breakout season. To suggest he wasn't any kind of "help" for Jordan is absurd. Pippen averaged 21-9-7-2-1 in the Finals. Not to mention he had 32-13-7-5-1 in the deciding 5th game.

And I'll just quote myself from a thread I started back in the summer after re-watching the '91 Finals.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=275571

Quote:
Game 1
Jordan has a very good NBA Finals debut going for 36-8-12-3 on 14/24 shooting; however, some of the younger Bulls admitted after the game to being very nervous, and it showed, most notably Horace Grant who had just 6 points on 3/8 shooting. Pippen went for 19-7-5 but on 7/19 shooting and was the only other Bull to score in double figures.

Sam Perkins hit a game winning three with about 15 seconds to go and Jordan had a 15-17 foot jumper go halfway down before rattling out, that would've given the Bulls a 93-92 lead with under 10 seconds to play. Four Lakers (Worthy, Perkins, Magic, and Vlade) scored 16+ points. Can't imagine all the overreaction threads on here if ISH existed back then after Jordan and the Bulls lost game one at home.


Game 2
The Jordan "Switches Hands in Mid-Air Iconic Floating Lay-Up" game. Bulls win in a blowout and Jordan goes for 33-7-13-2 on 15/18 shooting. Pippen and Grant both play much better, scoring 20 points apiece on 8/16 and 10/13 shooting respectively.


Game 3
This game was the most interesting to me for a couple of reasons. It felt like, about mid-way through the third quarter, that the Bulls were going to be blownout. The Lakers went on something like an 18-2 and 20-4 run to take a 14 point lead. They had all the momentum and the home crowd was into the game. Jordan was in the midst of an awful second half that would last up until the very final seconds of regulation. He wasn't just missing jumpers either, he was missing semi-easy layups and bunnies, too.

And, of all people, it was Cliff Levingston who I felt helped Pippen lead the Bulls comeback starting late in the 3rd quarter. He gave the Bulls some very good high energy minutes off the bench with a couple of blocks, and 6 or 8 points, including two offensive rebound putbacks; the type of energy/hustle plays that can wake a team up and get them going, which is exactly what I felt like his play during that stretch did. Again, could you imagine if ISH was around? There would've been 10 threads killing Jordan for missing shot after shot while his team was on the verge of getting blown out, and then there would've been another 5-10 threads killing him because it was Cliff Levingston and Craig Hodges who were "carrying" Jordan during the Bulls comeback.

Anyway, with the Bulls down two with 10 seconds to go, Jordan gets the inbounds pass, dribbles the lenght of the courth with Byron Scott pressuring him, and hits a 12 foot pull-up jumper over a closing Vlade Divac to send the game into OT. He was that close to losing the game on a 9/25 shooting performance (I think he went 2/3 in OT and finished 11/28) and being down 2-1 in his first NBA Finals with two more games to be played in LA. What happens if he misses that shot? Do the Lakers take that momentum to go on and win the series? And do the Bulls ever become "The Bulls"?

Jordan hits two big shots in OT, and they outscore the Lakers 12-4 in OT for the 104-96 win. Horace Grant had his best game of the series going for 22-11-3 on 9/11 shooting.


Game 4
Admittedly, I didn't watch much of this game. I could only find it on Youtube in "parts" and the way it's set-up through the PS3 app, it was damn near impossible to find the next part of the previous one finished. After about part 4 or 5 of 13 I gave-up. I knew the Bulls were up by 16 after the 3rd quarter and won by 15.


Game 5
This was just a really fun and exciting game from start to finish. Pippen was a beast (32 pts, 13 reb, 7 ast, 5 stl) and Jordan was Jordan. Their swarming defense wreaked havoc at crucial times, and led to one particular Jordan block, lead pass to Pippen, Pippen slam sequence that looked nearly identical to what some of the younger NBA fans have grown accustomed to seeing from Wade and LeBron.

It should also be noted that James Worthy and Byron Scott missed this game with an injury. Two rookies, Tony Smith and Elden Campbell, stepped up and played surprisingly well. Smith had 12 points on 5/6 shooting and Campbell had 21 points on 9/12 shooting.

But it wasn't Jordan or Pippen, or even Grant who hit the big shots down the stretch in the fourth quarter of a tight game. It was John Paxson who did what he had done most of the series by hitting long 2-point jumper after long 2-point jumper. I don't know why he didn't take the extra 1.5 step back and get set behind the 3P line, but he was money that series from 18-20 feet out. He scored either 8 or 10 of his 20 points in a 3-4 minute span in the fourth quarter to slowly extend the Bulls lead and give them a little bit of breathing room. Jordan did set him up nicely a few times off of penetration and kick-out where Paxson was wide-open. I've read/heard about how automatic Paxson was that series, but I didn't realize he hit several clutch jumpers in a row in the deciding game.

Obviously Jordan was phenomenal, but Pippen wasn't as bad as you're trying to make him sound, and John Paxson was on fire.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Kobe made it to the NBA Finals without an all-star or all-nba teammate on his team besides himself in 2008.
And that's just as ignorant as saying Jordan won it all by himself in 1991.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:11 AM   #37
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
makes no sense.

Pip is an all star reserve a year ago. Then Pip looses the reserve position despite increasing his PPG, APG, RPG.

maybe bulls played lot more OT, 2OT, 3OT games in 1991 so Pippen stats maybe inflated in 1991.

anyways, thats not the argument. 1992 Pippen >> 1991 Pippen who was just a GOOD player like NYK's OAKLEY or CHI's GRANT which could've been replaced & MJ still beat LAL in 6 games in 1991 finals.

Point is. MJ wins 1991 ring without Pippen easily.
So, any good player such as Horrace Grant can average 21, 9, 7 in an NBA Finals series? That kind of production is easily replaceable? This is by far the stupidest argument I've ever seen anyone try to present.

Last edited by AlexanderRight : 02-08-2013 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:12 AM   #38
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
If 1991 Pippen is not 2000 Kobe to Shaq

If 1991 Pippen is not 2012 Wade to LBJ

then 1991 MJ won it by himself
as Bulls were still called "MICHAEL & the Jordanaires"

BTW, this is no KNOCK on 1992-1998 Pippen who was a great player.
See you just made that up.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:26 AM   #39
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

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ISH should make a seperate "Historic players" forum.

The guy who runs the site doesn't want one. All requests have been ignored.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:53 AM   #40
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
And that's just as ignorant as saying Jordan won it all by himself in 1991.
No it isn't ignorant at all, it's fact. Kobe was the only All-star and/or All-NBA player on the 2007-08 Lakers, which reached the NBA Finals. That doesn't mean he got there by himself, just correcting the OP about what Kobe has done without an all-star.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

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Old 02-08-2013, 05:57 AM   #42
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
The guy who runs the site doesn't want one. All requests have been ignored.
Shame.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:02 AM   #43
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

1991 was actually Pippen's best playoffs: 21.6ppg 8.9rpg 5.8apg 2.5spg 1.1bpg .504%fg .792%ft and led the league during the playoffs in defensive rating. Most teams would be happy to have their BEST PLAYER put up stats like that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:10 AM   #44
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

It has never happened and never will... this is not tennis... You can be the greatest talent to ever lace up a pair of shoes, 7 foot Point-Guard dpoy defending pure shooting quadruple double average freak athlete... doesnt matter, if you dont have the required supporting cast around you then you wont get that championship....

Everybody knows this, yet everybody still keep ranking a player on their all-time lists based on championships being the #1 priority...... its funny... this would work only if all superstars/all-stars in NBA history had the same exact supporting cast............. you go ahead and take Bill Russell and ill go with Wilt Chamberlain, lets assume both have the exact supporting cast... see how that works out for you......

Last edited by pauk : 02-08-2013 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:48 AM   #45
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Default Re: Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke117
1991 was actually Pippen's best playoffs: 21.6ppg 8.9rpg 5.8apg 2.5spg 1.1bpg .504%fg .792%ft and led the league during the playoffs in defensive rating. Most teams would be happy to have their BEST PLAYER put up stats like that.

But, but he was not an All-Star (you know, that crap which happens midseason), hence, he regressed. Which would mean that Jordan should bear the blame for his 1990 failure to win the title with a "better" Pippen.
Oh, so Pippen wasn't a starter in the 1990 ASG. Neither was Karl Malone. He lost to AC freaking Green and almost got less votes than McDaniel as well. This should say a lot about the credibility of judging players by their All-Star appearances.

Hakeem in '94 won the title with 0 all-star quality/level players, 0 all-NBA, 0 all-defensive team and 0 all-rookie guys. Rick Barry in '75 had 1 all-rookie teammate and that was all.
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