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Old 02-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #31
Whoah10115
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
You're seriously dense if you don't know the difference between prediction and analysis. I never said Barkley or Smith are bad with predictions necessarily. Both I'm sure have predicted champions etc but that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with sound analysis. When it comes to actually breaking down teams and what their strengths and weaknesses are, they usually fail horribly and as a Clippers and Knicks fan we would know this first hand.

So are you indeed saying that as a player this year Tony Parker is a better PG/player than Chris Paul? It sounds to me like you said that. I'd like to verify this before I get into actual facts to destroy this idea.



To answer the second thing: I can see very clearly, when Paul busts Parker's ass in San Antonio, that Chris Paul is the best PG in the NBA. Even with all the thoughts I've had about Nash and him being the same thing, I can see Paul firmly settling himself in his prime. It's like Durant and James. LeBron probably passed Durant a week ago, but he's been behind Durant for most of the year (for me) and so it takes a minute to settle in. Obviously, kicking his ass last night kind of settles it for now, as far as where they are right now. But even then, even tho LeBron hasn't played as well as he did last year, I can see he's getting better as a player. And even when I argued Durant over James, I made clear in every thread that it's ridiculous for anyone to suggest that Durant is even CLOSE to LeBron. He's not anywhere near.


Parker has given a better performance, from beginning to end, until right now. Do I even think he'll have a better season by the end of the year? Not sure. I think Parker has clearly been the most impressive until this point. But Paul is better and I think the Clippers would beat the Spurs and I think they would beat the Thunder...and I think Paul will be the biggest reason why. So, it's hard to predict that he won't get even better as the season progresses. It doesn't change what I think up until now.


Now, onto the TNT guys...their analysis is better than their predictions. They know what they're talking about. They sit there and find things to talk about and their points involve actual critical basketball thinking. And their analysis is always spot on. Sometimes they skip around and forget certain things they said before. Sometimes they get a little caught up...yet, they do a very good job of not getting ahead of themselves and they talk basketball. They don't do the coach thing and show you a whatever play. They find things in players' games and they're almost always right about everything...and they force you to think, if you pay attention and consider what they're bringing up.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

Okay you just edited in that you ARE indeed saying Parker is a better player than Paul this year, which weakens your argument further. If you were to say that you feel Parker is more deserving for MVP, although still ridiculous... it's nowhere near as crazy as to say in general Tony Parker is a better player than Chris Paul this year.

Clippers have been THE best team in the NBA with Chris Paul in the lineup with an overall record of 32-9. Since he's been back they lost the first game to Miami and blew their next 4 opponents out by an average of 18 ppg with Paul playing INSANE.



Raw stats:

Chris Paul: 16.6 ppg, 9.6 apg, 2.6 spg, 3.5 rpg. 48 percent shooting from the field, 35 percent from deep.

Tony Parker: 21 ppg, 7.5 apg, 1 spg, 3 rpg. 53.5 percent shooting from the field, 39 percent from deep.

*3 point shooting is a bit misleading because Paul takes 4 a game, Parker takes 1



Advanced stats/Metrics:


PER: Chris Paul 27, Tony Parker 24.5.


Offensive rating: Chris Paul 128, Tony Parker 118.


Defensive stats: It's a blood path with Chris Paul being twice the defender in every single metric imaginable, no reason to post anything.


WS/48: Chris Paul is the NBA's leader in win shares rate at a career high, mind blowing .297 which is one of the best in NBA history. Tony Parker is very far behind at .235


Usage rates: To achieve these numbers Chris Paul is surprisingly using far less possessions than Tony Parker. Basically he's doing more with a lot less time on the ball.


TS%: Both are at an identical 59.7 percent.


Assist rate: Chris Paul assists on 47 percent of his teams buckets, Parker on 40 percent.



I literally can't find ANYTHING that tells me Parker is a better player. Not to mention almost anybody I've spoken to either on a forum or in person this year has said CP3 WASN'T the best PG in the NBA.



Chris Paul is the best offensive PG in the game based on not only his production alone but what he gets out of others and it's not even close. His career offensive rating is at the top of the all time list did you know that?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

That includes the freaking ABA. Go ahead and look for Tony Parker on that list.



Defensively? A blood bath. Chris Paul is better in every aspect of defense not even close.


Rebounding? Chris Paul has always been a better rebounder.


Passing? Chris Paul has always been a significantly better passer and top 3 playmaker every year, Parker is a solid playmaker/passer at best.


The only reason his raw PPG is less is because he attempts less shots, it's that simple.

Last edited by Clippersfan86 : 02-15-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Okay you just edited in that you ARE indeed saying Parker is a better player than Paul this year, which weakens your argument further. If you were to say that you feel Parker is more deserving for MVP, although still ridiculous... it's nowhere near as idiotic as to say in general Tony Parker is a better player than Chris Paul.

Clippers have been THE best team in the NBA with Chris Paul in the lineup with an overall record of 32-9. Since he's been back they lost the first game to Miami and blew their next 4 opponents out by an average of 18 ppg with Paul playing INSANE.



Raw stats:

Chris Paul: 16.6 ppg, 9.6 apg, 2.6 spg, 3.5 rpg. 48 percent shooting from the field, 35 percent from deep.

Tony Parker: 21 ppg, 7.5 apg, 1 spg, 3 rpg. 53.5 percent shooting from the field, 39 percent from deep.

*3 point shooting is a bit misleading because Paul takes 4 a game, Parker takes 1



Advanced stats/Metrics:


PER: Chris Paul 27, Tony Parker 24.5.


Offensive rating: Chris Paul 128, Tony Parker 118.


Defensive stats: It's a blood path with Chris Paul being twice the defender in every single metric imaginable, no reason to post anything.


WS/48: Chris Paul is the NBA's leader in win shares rate at a career high, mind blowing .297 which is one of the best in NBA history. Tony Parker is very far behind at .235


Usage rates: To achieve these numbers Chris Paul is surprisingly using far less possessions than Tony Parker. Basically he's doing more with a lot less time on the ball.


TS%: Both are at an identical 59.7 percent.


Assist rate: Chris Paul assists on 47 percent of his teams buckets, Parker on 40 percent.



I literally can't find ANYTHING that tells me Parker is a better player. Not to mention almost anybody I've spoken to either on a forum or in person this year has said CP3 WASN'T the best PG in the NBA.



Chris Paul is the best offensive PG in the game based on not only his production alone but what he gets out of others and it's not even close. His career offensive rating is at the top of the all time list did you know that?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

That includes the freaking ABA. Go ahead and look for Tony Parker on that list.



Defensively? A blood bath. Chris Paul is better in every aspect of defense not even close.


Rebounding? Chris Paul has always been a better rebounder.


Passing? Chris Paul has always been a significantly better passer and top 3 playmaker every year, Parker is a solid playmaker/passer at best.


The only reason his raw PPG is less is because he attempts less shots, it's that simple.



What are you talking about? I edited to say what? I said Chris Paul is the better player. I never argued anything otherwise. I said Parker was having the best season. I've said that throughout the season and I'm saying it now. What did I edit?


They're almost identical in terms of shots per attempt. Paul is shooting better from the FT line and Parker is shooting better from the field and from 3. To say one shoots more and therefore he scores more is oversimplifying and not accurate. Parker is a better scorer this season. He not only scores more, he scores more freely. Their offense is predicated on him penetrating and creating offense that way. I acknowledged all the things that Paul does better than Parker. I even acknowledged what he's done better this season. But Parker has been the better scorer, at that efficiency, and has run their offense better, in my opinion. Maybe you could plug just anyone in there (I don't believe that) but he's been in there and the way he's played has been eye-catching. It's not because he's flashy, but his execution of that offense is incredible this season.


And again, I never said Parker was better, nor did I edit anything.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:31 PM   #34
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

Buddy... it's the same thing. Chris Paul is having a better individual season than Parker, not debatable AND is the better player as well as PG. The only case Parker has is that his team is a little better record wise but that should be negligible considering how close the teams are.

Tony Parker is a better volume scorer and is very efficient offensively this year. LOL at Parker EVER running an offense better than Chris Paul.

Last edited by Clippersfan86 : 02-15-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Buddy... it's the same thing. Chris Paul is having a better individual season than Parker, not debatable AND is the better player as well as PG. The only case Parker has is that his team is a little better record wise but that should be negligible considering how close the teams are.



Before this random ass 11 game win streak I had Parker ahead. So I don't care about the record.


I know you like to tell me that I'm sometimes too arrogant about something being right, but you're doing the same thing here and it's obviously very wrong. It's very debatable. A lot of people debate it. With the games missed, it's easily debatable. You're the only one who thinks it isn't.


That, alone, does not make you wrong. But you're wrong.



I mean...how is it the same thing? It's not the same thing.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:37 PM   #36
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

Lebron has it on Lock and Parker missing games and probably more at some point don't help. Sorry Parker is a good player but not the MVP of NBA.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Before this random ass 11 game win streak I had Parker ahead. So I don't care about the record.


I know you like to tell me that I'm sometimes too arrogant about something being right, but you're doing the same thing here and it's obviously very wrong. It's very debatable. A lot of people debate it. With the games missed, it's easily debatable. You're the only one who thinks it isn't.


That, alone, does not make you wrong. But you're wrong.



I mean...how is it the same thing? It's not the same thing.

When something is logical and debatable I don't call people out. To say Parker>CP3 this season though is a pretty serious claim. If you said he's YOUR personal MVP fine. Just don't pass it like he's a better player this year because he's not on CP3's level AT ALL. Okay scores an extra 4 ppg or w/e. Also assists less, is a much worse defender in comparison, worse rebounder and doesn't have the impact on either end of the floor Paul does.

Paul is a maestro who runs an entire system on both ends and when you take him away the troops fall apart. Tony Parker on the other hand is just a piece of an already great system that succeeds with or without him. You don't seem to be understanding that.


Make a new thread about who's the better PG THIS YEAR Chris Paul or Tony Parker. After the thread goes on long enough we will tally up the votes and the loser wears an avy for a month. The reason it's up to you to make the thread is because trolls see my name and derail threads. If you make the thread, it may keep things calmer.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:47 PM   #38
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
When something is logical and debatable I don't call people out. To say Parker>CP3 this season though is a pretty serious claim. If you said he's YOUR personal MVP fine. Just don't pass it like he's a better player this year because he's not on CP3's level AT ALL. Okay scores an extra 4 ppg or w/e. Also assists less, is a much worse defender in comparison, worse rebounder and doesn't have the impact on either end of the floor Paul does.

Paul is a maestro who runs an entire system on both ends and when you take him away the troops fall apart. Tony Parker on the other hand is just a piece of an already great system that succeeds with or without him. You don't seem to be understanding that.


Make a new thread about who's the better PG THIS YEAR Chris Paul or Tony Parker. After the thread goes on long enough we will tally up the votes and the loser wears an avy for a month. The reason it's up to you to make the thread is because trolls see my name and derail threads. If you make the thread, it may keep things calmer.


Well, I decide the winner so he's only my choice. And not as MVP, but ahead of Paul.


I know what Paul is. But Parker is not on a team that succeeds with or without him. He was the best PG in the playoffs last year. The only advantage I could give to Westbrook was that he got to the Finals and was easily OKC's best player.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Well, I decide the winner so he's only my choice. And not as MVP, but ahead of Paul.


I know what Paul is. But Parker is not on a team that succeeds with or without him. He was the best PG in the playoffs last year. The only advantage I could give to Westbrook was that he got to the Finals and was easily OKC's best player.

Based on what? Let's go over the games Parker has missed this year.

Spurs vs Bulls: Spurs win by 14 despite no Parker (or Duncan).

Spurs vs Heat: Lose by just 5 despite no "Big 3" including Parker.

Spurs vs Blazers: Win by 3 despite no Parker.


So they are 2-1 this year without him and anybody who knows basketball knows the Spurs system makes everybody thrive. The one loss was down to the wire vs the defending champs. They can line up a group of D League players and still win games, because they are that well coached and the system is that spectacular.

In other words NOTHING has suggested that the Spurs NEED Parker. Go make a thread asking if Parker or CP3 is the better player or PG this year (wording is up to you). Let's get a bet going.

Last edited by Clippersfan86 : 02-15-2013 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:03 AM   #40
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Based on what? Let's go over the games Parker has missed this year.

Spurs vs Bulls: Spurs win by 14 despite no Parker (or Duncan).

Spurs vs Heat: Lose by just 5 despite no "Big 3" including Parker.

Spurs vs Blazers: Win by 3 despite no Parker.


So they are 3-0 this year without him and anybody who knows basketball knows the Spurs system makes everybody thrive. They can line up a group of D League players and still win games, because they are that well coached and the system is that spectacular.

In other words NOTHING has suggested that the Spurs NEED Parker. Go make a thread asking if Parker or CP3 is the better player or PG this year (wording is up to you). Let's get a bet going.



But I know who the best PG is...what's the point in asking that when the answer is obvious? And, I never said that Parker would place ahead of Paul. I said it's been a topic that people have debated this season, whereas you said it wasn't debatable. And if you look back, you'll see that's exactly what I've been saying.


And I'll say it, regardless of what other people think.


And, if they lost to Miami, how are they 3-0? They're 2-1. Hell, that's a worse win percentage than they have with him, if you wanna be technical. Which I imagine is what you're doing, as you're using a THREE game sample. Three games.


If you really think they could drop in solid PG in and get the same results, then you be crazy. That's obviously not true.


They are legitimate contenders for a title and they wouldn't be without Parker playing the way he is. You can't drop Deron playing the way Deron currently is and get the same results. Pop would have to motivate Deron to play better...but then again, that's a whole other discussion. How Parker is actually doing is the issue and he's playing like an elite player. Elite players are never anything but essential.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:10 AM   #41
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

What you're arguing though is pretty irrelevant. No shit Parker is a fantastic player and the Spurs would be hurt some without him. My point was he's far less important to the Spurs than CP3 is to the Clippers. CP3 also has better all around stats and impact. So the only grounds anybody would have to place Parker above Paul THIS YEAR or any other year would be team record, which as I said is pretty negligible.

I called Parker the 5 or 6 in the MVP race so It's not me disrespecting him. It's just that Lebron, KD, CP3 and Melo have all been clearly better players and more MVP worthy than Parker, so by default he should be no higher than 5.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:13 AM   #42
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html there's some opinions, either way

Tony Parker > CP3 for the first half, lets see what happens the second half
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:15 AM   #43
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
What you're arguing though is pretty irrelevant. No shit Parker is a fantastic player and the Spurs would be hurt some without him. My point was he's far less important to the Spurs than CP3 is to the Clippers. CP3 also has better all around stats and impact. So the only grounds anybody would have to place Parker above Paul THIS YEAR or any other year would be team record, which as I said is pretty negligible.

I called Parker the 5 or 6 in the MVP race so It's not me disrespecting him. It's just that Lebron, KD, CP3 and Melo have all been clearly better players and more MVP worthy than Parker, so by default he should be no higher than 5.


There's also the eye test. It's not a basic objective measure. I'm using my eyes and I see Parker impacting the game at a higher level this season. His consistency is incredible. Every game, he's simply doing the right thing, all the time.


Paul has more impact on his best days, but Parker is having his best day with regularity. Every single game, he's doing it. He's not better than Paul, but I think he's clearly had the better season, to this point.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by brandonislegend
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html there's some opinions, either way

Tony Parker > CP3 for the first half, lets see what happens the second half

Their rankings change on a weekly basis based on play from that specific week. If you guys are judging that way, then that's the misunderstanding. I'm judging on the entire season so far and that's CP3.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:19 AM   #45
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Default Re: Bold Prediction: Tony Parkers gets MVP this year

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
There's also the eye test. It's not a basic objective measure. I'm using my eyes and I see Parker impacting the game at a higher level this season. His consistency is incredible. Every game, he's simply doing the right thing, all the time.


Paul has more impact on his best days, but Parker is having his best day with regularity. Every single game, he's doing it. He's not better than Paul, but I think he's clearly had the better season, to this point.

I showed you the numbers and CP3 won in a landslide. You're talking about eye test... watch footage of the Clippers with and without CP3 and you wouldn't even be arguing with me right now man. Chris Paul's impact on the game of basketball shits on Parker's BAD. There actually isn't another PLAYER in the entire NBA who impacts the all around game as much as CP3 outside of Lebron.
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