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Old 05-26-2014, 01:32 AM   #1
joe
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Default Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

I've been thinking about this today. Generally when you have a situation like what occurred recently in California, you get these types of responses:

1) Sadness for the families, those killed.
2) Arguments about gun control.
3) Blaming the individual, claiming he was simply a psychopath.
4) Blaming the parents and loved ones, for not raising the killer better or intervening.

Occasionally, you see some passing blame towards society. For instance after Columbine, there was an idea that we should be nicer to the outsiders, which even continues today with the proliferation of anti-bullying sentiment in schools.

But my question is, does "society" deserve any blame? What, or who, composes this society? Is there a greater collective nature to humanity, or at least within a country, that demands us to "improve" towards a better society? And if there's not, should there be?

I've found myself being nicer to people today. Giving words of encouragement to people on the off chance they need it. I guess I felt the desire to be nicer to my fellow man, try to lift people up instead of being so worried about my own anxieties, my own fears.

At the same time, I also prefer to just be an individual. I personally do feel like an outsider to society, or more accurately, an observer of it. I don't enjoy the feeling of social pressure, I actively fight against it. And I do my best to avoid social obligations. So it was a small paradox in my relatively awesome life, when compared to what some are going through.

And as for this killer in particular. I didn't listen to everything he said. He says girls didn't notice him. People didn't appreciate his talents. How much of it was crazed lunacy? Is there any aspect of it where he's actually correct? Maybe society does need to change, and these shootings are just symptoms of whatever rot exists below the surface.

Or.. maybe he was just crazy. Maybe his parents didn't do a good job raising him. You tell me.

What do think?
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

America is a very large country, and in such we often get what sociologists refer to as the "diffusion of responsibility" phenomenon, or the "kitty genovese effect." Basically, the more people you have in a group, the less responsible each person feels for its direction, welfare, actions, etc.

There's a reason cities like NYC and Los Angeles have a reputation for just being a bunch of self-centered assholes crowded together, and small towns are known for "southern hospitality." When you get big conglomerations of people, everyone just starts looking out for themselves and has less concern for the group or the community.

America itself is very much like that. We are a country of immigrants and in many ways a nation of mercenaries, here to get our paycheck with very little concern for the preservation of American identity and values.


My point is not so much about whether 'society' bears any responsibility for this kids actions or not. Others can debate that, my point is that it would be nearly impossible to affect some kind of large-scale change even if that was determined to be the case. It's just something you have to live with in a country like U.S. and A. It's hard to influence 350,000,000 people. There's tons of opportunity here, but there's no avoiding the fact that it comes with a tradeoff. We are not a society that listens to the complaints of individuals. There's just too many people here for every voice to get heard. As a result, some people feel isolated and disaffected. Sadly, a handful of them will do unimaginable things.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

America wants gun violence to stop, doesn't ban guns. Rest of the world
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

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Originally Posted by JohnFreeman
America wants gun violence to stop, doesn't ban guns. Rest of the world

You ban guns and you give Government total control. Our founding fathers wanted us to have guns for a reason.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

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Originally Posted by JohnFreeman
America wants gun violence to stop, doesn't ban guns. Rest of the world


America wants drunk driving to stop, doesn't ban cars.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrazotile
America is a very large country, and in such we often get what sociologists refer to as the "diffusion of responsibility" phenomenon, or the "kitty genovese effect." Basically, the more people you have in a group, the less responsible each person feels for its direction, welfare, actions, etc.

There's a reason cities like NYC and Los Angeles have a reputation for just being a bunch of self-centered assholes crowded together, and small towns are known for "southern hospitality." When you get big conglomerations of people, everyone just starts looking out for themselves and has less concern for the group or the community.

America itself is very much like that. We are a country of immigrants and in many ways a nation of mercenaries, here to get our paycheck with very little concern for the preservation of American identity and values.


My point is not so much about whether 'society' bears any responsibility for this kids actions or not. Others can debate that, my point is that it would be nearly impossible to affect some kind of large-scale change even if that was determined to be the case. It's just something you have to live with in a country like U.S. and A. It's hard to influence 350,000,000 people. There's tons of opportunity here, but there's no avoiding the fact that it comes with a tradeoff. We are not a society that listens to the complaints of individuals. There's just too many people here for every voice to get heard. As a result, some people feel isolated and disaffected. Sadly, a handful of them will do unimaginable things.

I get what you are saying and you have a point. And there's a lot of science behind what you say. I remember when I was a kid I felt such a greater emphasis of there being some "community," like it seemed humans all worked together and had a united way about them. There was the fireman, the cop, the guy at the grocery store, and society seemed organized and filled with kind people. Naive as it sounds now, I remember it being somewhat of a shock to me when it all started to become clear, that these were just peoples jobs, not some noble service. Most people were only nice to me because I was a kid, etc. I'm not sure if it's an America thing, but it does ring true that the "smaller neighborhood" thing is less isolated.

Strangely, with me not enjoying the bounds of society, I find it funny that I was so comforted by it. But I do think I changed a lot to get where I am.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

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Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
You ban guns and you give Government total control. Our founding fathers wanted us to have guns for a reason.
Yeah to protect yourselves against the British invasion? I don't see American getting invaded anytime soon
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

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Yeah to protect yourselves against the British invasion? I don't see American getting invaded anytime soon

Wow you are so naive.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
Wow you are so naive.
No, Americans are just stupid. You are all to blame for school shootings
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

I truly don't see how removing guns will stop mass killing. What if this Elliot guy just set a few sororities on fire, would that have been any better for anybody? I'm not looking to get into a gun control debate, I just find it amazingly silly to believe removing guns will stop these people from killing others..

My question, I believe the bigger question, is why are they killing others? Are there steps we can take "as a society" that could lower the percentage of people that choose this route.

If you argue that these people are simply psychopaths, getting rid of guns won't help, they'll still find a way to kill. If you argue that it's society, getting rid of guns won't help, they'll still find a way to kill. The only help seems to be finding the root of the problem and alleviating it. Or, just accepting that these things will happen from time to time, as Akrozotile suggested. Both seem like plausible reactions. Getting rid of guns... politically fueled short sightedness.
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:00 AM   #11
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFreeman
No, Americans are just stupid. You are all to blame for school shootings

Actually, We da bess.

Deal with it.

:confisedshrug:
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:01 AM   #12
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

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No, Americans are just stupid. You are all to blame for school shootings
He only killed 2 people with a gun js
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

Quote:
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No, Americans are just stupid. You are all to blame for school shootings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ror9v2LwHoY
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:03 AM   #14
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

America murders people everyday, just look at Iraq and Afghanistan. War mongers.
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:04 AM   #15
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Default Re: Does "society" deserve any blame when mass killers blame society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
You ban guns and you give Government total control. Our founding fathers wanted us to have guns for a reason.
so the government has total control in places like the UK and Australia?

the us govt has things like tanks and predator drones.... a citizen with an assault rifle cant do shit vs the government. maybe you didnt notice but things have changed a little bit since the founding fathers were around.
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