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Old 02-28-2013, 09:11 PM   #31
La Frescobaldi
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by 2010splash
It can't. Why in the hell would a 6'6" SG be anywhere near the league leader in FG%, rebounding, blocks, etc.

And you incorrectly assume that the 60's Celtics and 70's Knicks were some kind of powerhouses compared to the teams Jordan faced. Just because they were stacked relative to other 60's or 70's teams does not mean that Wilt's competition was tougher.

Case in point - two key players (and current HOFers) on the 60's Celtics were Bob Cousy and John Havlicek. Neither player had the athleticism nor skill level that would translate to anything more than a complete scrub in Jordan's league or today's league. Yet someone like you would use these players to support your theory that the 60's Celtics were tough competition for Wilt. If only Jordan were being defended by slow and unathletic stiffs every night...

It's not my fault Jordan can't win rebounding, FG or block shot titles. I'm not comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain. You are. And you can't do it.

I don't remember seeing Cousy play. I have no idea. The few clips I have seen of his passing ability make me think you're wrong.

If John Havlicek was playing today I have no doubt he'd be 1st team NBA , one of the best rebounding forwards, a game winning shooter, probably top 5 man defenders, valid MVP contender regardless of what team he was on. You'd have to talk about LeBron James or Kevin Garnett from several years ago to show me a forward better than John Havlicek. He's not top 10 anymore but he's not far behind it.
Best of luck watching hundreds of hours of film.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by 2010splash
No, you are talking about the defensive rule changes from the 90's until early 2000's. That's different. The competition/talent level was still the same (worse perimeter players but far better bigs). The 60's stuff is truth because it relates to the poorer overall quality of basketball being played at the time, the average athlete being far worse, talent pool dilution, easier playoff format (only 2 rounds needed to win it all), far fewer teams, etc. Just an awful brand of basketball.

How many 60s games have you seen?
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010splash
No, you are talking about the defensive rule changes from the 90's until early 2000's. That's different. The competition/talent level was still the same (worse perimeter players but far better bigs). The 60's stuff is truth because it relates to the poorer overall quality of basketball being played at the time, the average athlete being far worse, talent pool dilution, easier playoff format (only 2 rounds needed to win it all), far fewer teams, etc. Just an awful brand of basketball.

No, I'm talking about people now doing the same thing to Jordan fans that Jordan fans have done to others. People have said Jordan had no competition when he played, faced no defense, etc., the same charges Jordan fans have made against others. I've seen it, because I actually pay attention to these things. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010splash
No, you are talking about the defensive rule changes from the 90's until early 2000's. That's different. The competition/talent level was still the same (worse perimeter players but far better bigs). The 60's stuff is truth because it relates to the poorer overall quality of basketball being played at the time, the average athlete being far worse, talent pool dilution, easier playoff format (only 2 rounds needed to win it all), far fewer teams, etc. Just an awful brand of basketball.
lol after this post I really am done with this thread.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:17 PM   #35
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
It's not my fault Jordan can't win rebounding, FG or block shot titles. I'm not comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain. You are. And you can't do it.

I don't remember seeing Cousy play. I have no idea. The few clips I have seen of his passing ability make me think you're wrong.

If John Havlicek was playing today I have no doubt he'd be 1st team NBA , one of the best rebounding forwards, a game winning shooter, probably top 5 man defenders, valid MVP contender regardless of what team he was on. You'd have to talk about LeBron James or Kevin Garnett from several years ago to show me a forward better than John Havlicek. He's not top 10 anymore but he's not far behind it.
Best of luck watching hundreds of hours of film.
I can compare Jordan favorably to Wilt by pointing his far greater team success against far tougher competition. That's all that needs to be done. He is even statistically superior if you adjust Wilt's inflated stats for the high pace and weak competition he played.

And I hope that Havlicek 1st team all-NBA comment was a joke. Forget LeBron and Garnett - he wouldn't even be better than Pierce today. Kevin Durant would run circles around him. Prime McGrady, Duncan, Bosh, Nowitzki, Love, George, prime Marion... could name probably 30 more who were better than Havlicek would be in the modern era.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:19 PM   #36
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
How many 60s games have you seen?
They're all over YouTube. Plenty.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by 2010splash
They're all over YouTube.

I disagree.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Comparing Jordan to Wilt is just insulting to Wilt.


MJ 6
Wilt 2

Don't compare Jordan to a choker please.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Team defense? Improved?

Zone (team defense) is only one type of defense... and it is allowed now. It was not allowed (in the NBA) in the 60's. As I stated that's a rule modification. Funny because I can come right back around and say that as a result of the NBA's rule modifications since the 1960's 1 on 1 defense has regressed just as much as "team defense" has improved. 1 on 1 defensive freedoms like hand checking have been removed from the game. You can't really say one set of defensive rules being used by the NBA is any greater at stopping a player like Wilt than another. Players in the "modern era" have still proven quite capable of averaging similar offensive volumes as players were in the 60's - with even greater average fg%'s actually. We're talking about fictional shit right now like time travel, so shit, if your going to bring Wilt back and see what he's capable of why not bring his 1962 coach Frank McQuire to coach his team, and then he absolutely will play 48+ minutes in the modern league, and the coach will definitely tell teammates to feed Wilt so that Wilt can score the number Frank McGuire, his coach, envisioned him scoring from the start. 50ppg.



We have to be realistic here. I understand what you're trying to say, but Wilt would max out at 40MPG. 10 years ago he might get 42. If his team was in the East and super average then maybe he could push a little higher than 40 now, but it's still unlikely. Any team with Wilt would choose to protect its future and not let him play that much. It's just how it's gonna go.


Team defenses are more sophisticated, tho they're not necessarily better. Obviously, we're not gonna get scoring like in the 60's. And we won't get the 80's either, as coaches are going to want to play it safe on that side of the ball...especially to combat the newer defensive approaches.


Nowadays, coaches and their defensive systems make a lot of concessions, but are conservative enough to play a more defensive-minded game, overall. Wilt is going to score Level Medium video game numbers. That's just not reasonable, especially when considering his minutes will be much lower.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:33 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Nowadays? If Chamberlain was on the Knicks Carmelo Anthony would tank games until Wilt-sanity was traded and he would would sit on the bench and refuse to play until McGuire was fired.



To be fair, I don't think there is any era where Wilt and Carmelo would mesh.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:35 PM   #41
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
We have to be realistic here. I understand what you're trying to say, but Wilt would max out at 40MPG. 10 years ago he might get 42. If his team was in the East and super average then maybe he could push a little higher than 40 now, but it's still unlikely. Any team with Wilt would choose to protect its future and not let him play that much. It's just how it's gonna go.


Team defenses are more sophisticated, tho they're not necessarily better. Obviously, we're not gonna get scoring like in the 60's. And we won't get the 80's either, as coaches are going to want to play it safe on that side of the ball...especially to combat the newer defensive approaches.


Nowadays, coaches and their defensive systems make a lot of concessions, but are conservative enough to play a more defensive-minded game, overall. Wilt is going to score Level Medium video game numbers. That's just not reasonable, especially when considering his minutes will be much lower.

Under Frank McGuire Wilt would play 48mpg... It was Frank McGuires wish that Wilt play that many minutes, Wilt obliged. Like I said, if your going to be making corny time travel scenarios to see what kind of numbers Wilt was capable of might as well pull his coach along that gave him the green light to tap all of his scoring potential in the first place.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:41 PM   #42
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

Wilt Chamberlain wouldn't be playing the heavy minutes he did back in the day, nor would ever again apporach playing every second of a game like he did in 61-62.

Today's coaching would bench him if the game was at hand or out of reach.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Under Frank McGuire Wilt would play 48mpg... It was Frank McGuires wish that Wilt play that many minutes, Wilt obliged. Like I said, if your going to be making corny time travel scenarios to see what kind of numbers Wilt was capable of might as well pull his coach along that gave him the green light to tap all of his scoring potential in the first place.



McGuire could be transported into time, but he wouldn't have a job here to transport to.


I do get what you mean tho. But this shouldn't be about flying Chamberlain thru time. Just imagine him and his talent, his basic mindset, competitiveness, intelligence, conditioning. Who would that player be now?


You asked if that poster believes that today's players are more cerebral than in the past. The answer is obviously no. But why would they be? The coaches do that for them and, like in other sports, get in the way of instincts and true accountability. Wilt might be too big a personality to have that happen (I certainly think most of the best 90's players would be) but certain things are going to come back down to Earth...especially coming from the 60's.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:06 AM   #44
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

There have been some brilliant responses to this thread -- do consider, despite the title, this thread wasn't meant as a direct comparison of MJ vs Wilt, so let's all just let that go. Rather it is about using some overlap to explore whether comparisons across eras is possible and what kinds of factors have to be accounted for when making these types of comparisons.

Obviously, coaching is a factor that would have to be accounted for -- it might be useful to look at coaching careers that spanned multiple decades, and even to look at some of the resumes of current head coaches, in their days as assistants, etc. One example that comes to mind would be Phil Jackson, whose coaching career began in the early 80s. Is he still a viable head coach in 2013? Ask Laker fans. Has his basketball philosophy changed very much over the years? As a throw in, Chuck Daly's coaching career spanned the 70s 80s and 90s.

I think there is a tendency, because we see 100 meter records consistently broken over the years, to assume the same thing is happening in basketball. But basketball is a beautiful sport, much like soccer, that cannot be reduced to athletic ability. The mere argument that players on the whole are more athletic today says absolutely nothing of the quality of basketball. So many less athletic players were legends in their day, as Steve Nash is an unathletic legend in our day. This game is more about moving at the right speed than it is about moving at the fastest possible speed, a concept many of you younger aspiring players have no clue about.

Now, on the wilt thing

You can make the argument for specific players that dominated mostly due to athletic ability, such as Wilt, that their athletic advantage would no longer exist, and that's an interesting argument to have. Must get into the details of Wilt's game, his footwork, his passing ability, defensive positioning, etc. to determine if his formidable athleticism was the driving force behind his success. And then you have to make the (good luck) argument that because we have come SUCH a long way (9.98 to 9.69 is it?), his athletic ability alone would not make him the 1st pick of the 2013, or 2056 draft.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #45
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Default Re: Ways to compare across eras - MJ vs Wilt

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Originally Posted by 2010splash
It can't. Why in the hell would a 6'6" SG be anywhere near the league leader in FG%, rebounding, blocks, etc.

And you incorrectly assume that the 60's Celtics and 70's Knicks were some kind of powerhouses compared to the teams Jordan faced. Just because they were stacked relative to other 60's or 70's teams does not mean that Wilt's competition was tougher.

Case in point - two key players (and current HOFers) on the 60's Celtics were Bob Cousy and John Havlicek. Neither player had the athleticism nor skill level that would translate to anything more than a complete scrub in Jordan's league or today's league. Yet someone like you would use these players to support your theory that the 60's Celtics were tough competition for Wilt. If only Jordan were being defended by slow and unathletic stiffs every night...


Suuuuure, dude, that's why Dr.J, with all-time level athleticism and skills, had called 36-38 year old Havlicek one of his toughest opponents, and the boxscores now exist and prove his point. And that's why Havlicek, just 7 years before Jordan (not to mention just 2 years before Magic and Bird), and facing multiple players who also faced Jordan, was still a 16/4/4 guy, at the age of 38. All you did was look at 2-3 minutes of footage, you saw no dunks, you deemed him a scrub. Because reality, as depicted by opponents like Erving and Gervin (were they also "scrubs in Jordan's era"? Care to check out, please?), shows otherwise.
Even funnier, when Jordan is doing his thing on "athletes" like Craig Ehlo, Bryon Russell and Bad Boy Pistons' "athletes" like Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, Adrian Dantley and Laimbeer, we are supposed to marvel at how he managed to beat them, right? Oh, the hypocrisy.
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