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Old 06-08-2013, 06:00 AM   #286
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
Suprised that nobody on ISH is talking about PRISM. It has been officially confirmed that big brother is spying on everything.

A lot of us mentally checked out already. It's one of those things that I don't know how many keystrokes and arguments I've wasted and had to go through to try get the point across, for years now.. but it still fell on deaf ears. I remember so many petty arguments on this forum telling people that obama and bush were the same, only to have to argue against semantics and minute details about their views. Now that it's turning up and we are starting to see really how deep the rabbit hole goes, it feels like it's too late. Even I am surprised how much progress and advanced this spying shit has gotten.

I've supported Ron Paul since 2007, volunteered for his campaign, donated as much money as a college student could at the time knowing he was really our only chance at protecting our civil liberties. I look at his son, Rand, and how even with the current events, the majority of people I know (I live in a blue state) still can't even muster up just a little respect for him, even with his great record on standing up for our civil liberties... "oh, but he's part of the tea party!" "oh, I agree with him on that but could never vote for him cuz he's a republican" ****ing idiots

I mean how's the "voting for the lesser evil" working out? Turns out that evil wasn't even much lesser than the other one. And it doesn't matter still, because I know in 2016, people are gonna make the same mistake at the polls.

America dug it's grave already and now it's time to get ready to lie in it. It's the truth. We are already the laughing stock of the world now and our hypocrisy knows no bounds. Our press wasn't even the one that broke out the Verizon story... it came from the UK of all places People wont take this stuff seriously until it gets up and smacks them right in the face, and by then, it's just too late. The amount of effort it will take to turn things back at that point will be exponentially greater. Far greater than what I want to imagine...
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:11 PM   #287
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

George W. Obama’ photo makes waves online.


http://www.today.com/video/today/52131253#52131253
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Old 06-09-2013, 02:56 AM   #288
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
more like 4 murdering sociopaths.

Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:56 AM   #289
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/te...orts.html?_r=0

^Here is a pretty good description of what PRISM does.

The worst part is people responding that "if you have something to hide then you shouldn't be doing it." It seems a lot of people don't grasp the implications of a program like this or consider the cost/benefit of this type of program. Imagine U.S. reaction if another country did this and used it to systematically wipe about rebellions.
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Old 06-09-2013, 02:37 PM   #290
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.

dick cheney apologists are an embarassment. how about you go back to arguing with rocketsgreatness in the NBA forum? nobody in this thread gives a fvck about your opinion.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:00 PM   #291
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.
It's not an embarrassment whatsoever and it has nothing to do with hating politicians. The embarrassment is your failure to acknowledge a matter of fact. Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Rumsfeld are all complicit in mass murder.

The comparison to Saddam is a case in point. In 1980 Saddam launched a vicious attack on Iran and occupied southwestern Iran. Thousands of Iraqis and even more Iranians died. The war would have ended in an Iraqi retreat after a few years, as their weaponry deteriorated and their numbers were depleted, until Reagan to overwhelming opposition removed Saddam from the terrorist list and pledged him massive aid, including components for the poison gas Hussein would eventually use against the Kurds. National security directives read that the US "must do whatever is necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war". American allies went along with all this and helped out as well. Rumsfeld (speak of the devil) the defense Secretary of the time met with Saddam and assured him of American support. Thus the war continued, both Iraq and Iran were decimated, hundreds of thousands lost their lives, civilians and combatants alike.

Saddam is certainly responsible for those bodies having sparked the brewing conflict, and in the two decades afterwards he was harsh and repressive and murderous towards his own civilians. But he would NEVER have been able to kill that many people if the Western alliance hadn't rejuvenated his military. What's more, his forces were so battered after two years that it's even possible a popular uprising in his own country, out of hatred for its repression and aggression against Iran, might have even succeeded. Hell it almost did after the 92 Gulf War until NATO forces authorized Saddam to suppress it.

Needless to say however, he's a mass murderer.


Now take the Bush administration's invasion into Saddam's Iraq, a country and administration that was already probably as weak as it had ever been after Clinton and Bush I sanctions had decimated it economically.

Why did the invade? It's clear in the aftermath that it wasn't for any reason with more integrity than Saddam thinking the Iranian revolutionary regime was ripe for destruction in its infancy. Unless you believe it was a result of bad intelligence. They invaded for geostrategic reasons and the results were abhorrently bloody.

Body counts of the Iraq War put the number at anywhere between 100,000 and a full million. Couple figures right smack in the middle, it really depends who you cite. The establishment puts the number at around 150,000, with 80% of those being civilians. That should be a low estimate unless you trust the prosecutors of the war with a reliable count of their victims -- I don't. 15,000 more were included as a result of the Wikileaks War Logs which we would never have found out about were it not for a young man currently facing life in prison and a possible death sentence.

Other sources put the figure like I said at more like a million Iraqis dead, and probably just broaden the definition of 'caused' to more indirect tally.

Here's an example. Before the Gulf War (1st one), cancer rates were at about 0.04% of the population. By 1995 after the war and a few years into sanctions -- that also barred admittance of crucial radiotherapy and chemotherapy equipment -- that number had risen to about 1% of the population. Ten years after that, the number is approaching 2%.

Why? Because American weaponry used armour piercing shells tipped with depleted uranium. It's no mystery, everybody understands the roots of the health crisis. At this point, another 8 years after that 2% figure was made public, after constant warring and a horrendous lack of treatment for patients, that number could well be nearing 5%.

And that's the country as a whole. Obviously areas that were central to both Gulf invasions will carry even higher rates. How high? Between 40-48% in Basra region, estimated by doctors to rise over 50% within five years.

Or how about Fallujah? A study a few years ago documented an increase in birth defects and deformities on par with Hiroshima. You wanna read it, I'd recommend it. It's anecdotal, the cause hasn't been verified (tho american forces admit to using white phosphorus in the area) nor has its statistical significance (i dont think). but you would have to be an idiot not to consider all of these figures and not come to certain causal conclusions.





So please, tell me, how exactly is it embarrassing to claim the highest level of American governance during the enactments of these fatal policies are murderous? The sociopathy is a different matter but I'd bet my hat on it.

Last edited by RidonKs : 06-09-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:02 AM   #292
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
dick cheney apologists are an embarassment. how about you go back to arguing with rocketsgreatness in the NBA forum? nobody in this thread gives a fvck about your opinion.

First of all, I don't even like Cheney. But I know for a pansy like yourself, anyone who doesn't throw around words lightly and essentially label someone the most vile type of person on earth(and we can agree that a murderous sociopath fits that description, right?) must be a Bush/Cheney lover.

As for RocketGreatness? Does he even still post here? Last account of his I remember had to be about a year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
So please, tell me, how exactly is it embarrassing to claim the highest level of American governance during the enactments of these fatal policies are murderous? The sociopathy is a different matter but I'd bet my hat on it.

First, this is exactly why the Saddam analogy doesn't work with Bush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
Saddam is certainly responsible for those bodies having sparked the brewing conflict, and in the two decades afterwards he was harsh and repressive and murderous towards his own civilians.

Unless you want to make those same claims against Bush, you simply can't compare the 2.

Killing enemies during war is completely different than flat out murder. I would think this much should go without saying. Which is why one is illegal, and the other one wasn't. It was an ill-advised and costly war, one that ultimately has done more harm than good. It was simply a big mistake and the black mark that will define Bush's legacy. But there's a huge leap from that to murderous sociopath.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:52 AM   #293
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
First of all, I don't even like Cheney. But I know for a pansy like yourself, anyone who doesn't throw around words lightly and essentially label someone the most vile type of person on earth(and we can agree that a murderous sociopath fits that description, right?) must be a Bush/Cheney lover.

As for RocketGreatness? Does he even still post here? Last account of his I remember had to be about a year ago.



First, this is exactly why the Saddam analogy doesn't work with Bush.



Unless you want to make those same claims against Bush, you simply can't compare the 2.

Killing enemies during war is completely different than flat out murder. I would think this much should go without saying. Which is why one is illegal, and the other one wasn't. It was an ill-advised and costly war, one that ultimately has done more harm than good. It was simply a big mistake and the black mark that will define Bush's legacy. But there's a huge leap from that to murderous sociopath.

"ill-advised and costly war" - well put asshole

yeah i am sure the family members of the 100k+ dead iraqi civilians would agree with you about that. its not just the war either, we are still running that illegal indefinite detainment torture prison too.

the only difference between ted bundy and these guys is that bundy didnt have air craft carriers and predator drones.

Last edited by Nanners : 06-10-2013 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 06-10-2013, 03:08 AM   #294
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Killing enemies during war is completely different than flat out murder. I would think this much should go without saying. Which is why one is illegal, and the other one wasn't. It was an ill-advised and costly war, one that ultimately has done more harm than good. It was simply a big mistake and the black mark that will define Bush's legacy. But there's a huge leap from that to murderous sociopath.

In what world is what happened in Iraq over a few decades considered legal???
just because laws in place can not be adequately enforced doesn't mean laws were not broken.
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Old 06-10-2013, 03:29 AM   #295
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM
In what world is what happened in Iraq over a few decades considered legal???
just because laws in place can not be adequately enforced doesn't mean laws were not broken.

I mean the act of war itself. Of course the government breaks laws with their methods. Probably too many to count in every administration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
"ill-advised and costly war" - well put asshole

Gotta love the internet. You compare George Bush to Ted Bundy, and I'm the asshole? Alright. But I'm sure you can find people in your drum circle who will agree with the Bush/Bundy analogy.

Quote:
yeah i am sure the family members of the 100k+ dead iraqi civilians would agree with you about that. its not just the war either, we are still running that illegal indefinite detainment torture prison too.

Of course any country who we're at war with will hate us. I wouldn't expect any to agree.

Quote:
the only difference between ted bundy and these guys is that bundy didnt have air craft carriers and predator drones.

Actually, there are many differences. The primary difference is that Bundy was a regular citizen, not in war, or authorized to go to war who killed other people for pleasure.

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Old 06-11-2013, 03:25 PM   #296
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Killing enemies during war is completely different than flat out murder. I would think this much should go without saying. Which is why one is illegal, and the other one wasn't. It was an ill-advised and costly war, one that ultimately has done more harm than good. It was simply a big mistake and the black mark that will define Bush's legacy. But there's a huge leap from that to murderous sociopath.
Quote:
I mean the act of war itself. Of course the government breaks laws with their methods. Probably too many to count in every administration.
You really think the act of initiating the Iraq War was legal? Just because Bush and Cheney aren't in The Hague facing their own personal ICC tribunals?

Everybody outside the US and the UK understands why the Iraq War was illegal. Plenty of people inside those two countries do as well. The invasion was literally a case in point of exactly what the UN Charter, the foundation of international law that as it happens the US was explicitly involved in writing, expressly forbids. Here's the quote.
Quote:
All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations

Pretty straight forward. The only legal basis for it is Saddam failing to let in UN nuclear inspections on a regular basis -- but that's UN business. And therefore requires a UN resolution, which would have been impossible with the Russian and Chinese veto power.

There are many people who attempt to argue the US/UK forces were merely an extension of UN resolutions in the early 90s designed to protect Kuwait. Those people don't have a leg to stand on and everybody knows it.


It was an illegal act of horrific aggression on the flimsiest of bases that, for whatever nationalistic or ideological reason, you refuse to call immoral or murderous. It's just a "mistake" that hindsight has called into question. This in spite of the fact that an entire world was calling it disastrous and catastrophic the moment the Bush administration that planned the whole thing announced it.

This isn't unique to the Iraq War. It's precisely what mainstream America calls Vietnam, even to this day. The support for colonial France, calling off democratic elections called for by the Geneva Accords, the invasion of South Vietnam, the eventual bombing of Indochinese peasants in half a dozen countries from Laos to Cambodia. You can find similar words describing international terrorism all over Central America, including in Nicaragua which the ICJ officially declared an unlawful use of force -- a ruling ignored by the Reagan admin.

These military and intelligence operations aren't immoral. They certainly aren't illegal. They're just mistakes, carried out with the best of intentions, that occasionally and unfortunately cause more harm than good.

Why? For no other reason but because it just so happened to be your country committing the atrocities.



If you want to make absurd distinctions of morality and the definition of "murderous" and "sociopathic", that's up to you. One thing I'm certain of is the hideous insult to the victims of all five of these murderous sociopaths -- Hussein, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice -- to make any distinctions of the sort. They took actions with predictably deathly consequences for ulterior motives and each and every one of them should be viewed in that light first and foremost.

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Old 06-11-2013, 04:26 PM   #297
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
If you want to make absurd distinctions of morality and the definition of "murderous" and "sociopathic", that's up to you. One thing I'm certain of is the hideous insult to the victims of all five of these murderous sociopaths -- Hussein, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice -- to make any distinctions of the sort. They took actions with predictably deathly consequences for ulterior motives and each and every one of them should be viewed in that light first and foremost.

very well said, thank you.

Where is KevinNYC? I am suprised he has not been doing his usual routine of copy-pasting msnbc articles in response to PRISM.

Kevin, what do you think about the NYT saying that the Obama Administration has lost all credibility?

Last edited by Nanners : 06-11-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:44 PM   #298
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
very well said, thank you.

Where is KevinNYC? I am suprised he has not been doing his usual routine of copy-pasting msnbc articles in response to PRISM.

Kevin, what do you think about the NYT saying that the Obama Administration has lost all credibility?


Like he had much credibility to begin with. He's a slick politician who was the lesser of 2 evils in 2 presidential elections. Sad state of affairs but business as usual in Washington. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:46 PM   #299
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

nobody wants to talk about drones

i guarantee that more than half of America doesn't even know what a Drone is
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:50 PM   #300
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

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nobody wants to talk about drones

i guarantee that more than half of America doesn't even know what a Drone is


A type of bee?
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