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Old 03-22-2013, 06:32 PM   #76
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

[quote=tpols]Damn that's interesting.. Hakeem beat Shaq head to head too. SHAQ's all muscle and no mind. Pacers, Nets, Mavs, and Sixers.. Probably the weakest collection of big men in the finals ever. Would Shaq ever have beat a team in the Finals with a big man on his level?[/QUOTE]


Would the Lakers have won any titles without the refs in their back pocket?
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #77
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I must be missing your point as well.

The point is: Jordan could have easily had much better opponents than he did have. Had he had much better opponents, he would not have 6 rings. He would have 2 or 3. Maybe just 1. He would not be any worse a player, but he sure wouldn't be labelled the GOAT by society with 1 ring alone. Not even with 2 or 3 rings.

To make a long story short: Circumstances.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:39 PM   #78
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
The point is: Jordan could have easily had much better opponents than he did have. Had he had much better opponents, he would not have 6 rings. He would have 2 or 3. Maybe just 1. He would not be any worse a player, but he sure wouldn't be labelled the GOAT by society with 1 ring alone. Not even with 2 or 3 rings.

To make a long story short: Circumstances.

Announcers were calling him the greatest by the late 80s, when he had 0 rings. Wilt and Hakeem are in 95% of peoples' top 10 lists even though they have 2 championships each.

Plus everybody could technically have had better competition.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 PM   #79
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
Announcers were calling him the greatest by the late 80s, when he had 0 rings.

I remember much differently. I remember he was thought and said to be a player who is individually great but who will never win anything due to being a selfish chucker who doesn't know shit about teamplay the way Bird and Magic do. Actually, many people thought by the end of the 80s that MJ would never win anything.

It was after 1992, the Olympics and the Dream Team in Barcelona when he started to become a worldwide icon. Soon after the Olympics he retired, and by the time he got back to basketball and won again a year later, he was generally thought of as the best ever.

Last edited by elementally morale : 03-22-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 PM   #80
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

lets hope tim duncan gets overrated into the top 5 discussion where he BELONGS..

as it is hes underrated.. some people dont even have him top 10 LMAO

4 rings as the MVP, defensive ANCHOR (top 5 all time defender) and CLUTCH = top 5 player
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:48 PM   #81
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
Wilt and Hakeem are in 95% of peoples' top 10 lists even though they have 2 championships each.

Sure. I didn't want to imply MJ would not even be thought of as a top 10 player. He would just not be the undisputable GOAT had he not won as many rings or had he lost in the Finals a few times, etc. Which could have easily happened with him not being any worse than he was. A simple thing like Bird and Magic not retiring, Pippen not being drafted, PJAx not being available, Shaq arriving a lot sooner... all of these would have changed the landscape for MJ.

I'm not saying he isn't the best payer of all time. All I'm saying is: Those who think it is undisputable are mistaken. Peak Bird and peak Shaq were no worse than peak Jordan.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:55 PM   #82
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
Sure. I didn't want to imply MJ would not even be thought of as a top 10 player. He would just not be the undisputable GOAT had he not won as many rings or had he lost in the Finals a few times, etc. Which could have easily happened with him not being any worse than he was. A simple thing like Bird and Magic not retiring, Pippen not being drafted, PJAx not being available, Shaq arriving a lot sooner... all of these would have changed the landscape for MJ.

I'm not saying he isn't the best payer of all time. All I'm saying is: Those who think it is undisputable are mistaken. Peak Bird and peak Shaq were no worse than peak Jordan.

I struggle with that last statement.

One could argue that Larry was every bit as good a total offensive player as Jordan. I don't think you could make a legit argument either way for or against either one of them in that department.

But it's the defensive side of the ball that really makes it an obvious choice to me. Michael has an argument as the GOAT perimeter defender, Bird is nowhere near that.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:03 PM   #83
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I struggle with that last statement.

One could argue that Larry was every bit as good a total offensive player as Jordan. I don't think you could make a legit argument either way for or against either one of them in that department.

But it's the defensive side of the ball that really makes it an obvious choice to me. Michael has an argument as the GOAT perimeter defender, Bird is nowhere near that.

Jordan was a better defensive player (though he is nowhere near the best perimeter defender of all time, but he is good). Bird was a better offensive player though. He (Bird) was more efficient, not only with his shot but with his allaround offensive numbers. And he was a much better passer and playmaker.

I know it's unheard of if someone says he saw better (as in: more efficient, more effective) offensive players than Jordan, but I saw at least two: peak Bird and peak Shaq. Neither of these players I really like btw, so by no means I want to prop either of them. It's just the 'truth', at least in my perception.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:12 PM   #84
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Reggie Miller, Pippen, Rodman, Hakeem and Grant Hill.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:15 PM   #85
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

[quote=NBASTATMAN]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Damn that's interesting.. Hakeem beat Shaq head to head too. SHAQ's all muscle and no mind. Pacers, Nets, Mavs, and Sixers.. Probably the weakest collection of big men in the finals ever. Would Shaq ever have beat a team in the Finals with a big man on his level?[/QUOTE]


Would the Lakers have won any titles without the refs in their back pocket?


Dude, are you serious? Houston beat Shaqs teams head to head, but Shaq averaged 4 more points and 3 more rebounds against Hakeem and shot 54% compared to Hakeems 44%. Same deal in the playoffs, but Shaq also averaged 2 more blocks per game than Hakeem. And lets not act like Shaq was even in his prime when he faced Hakeem.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:19 PM   #86
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakencdukest
(...) Shaq averaged 4 more points and 3 more rebounds against Hakeem and shot 54% compared to Hakeems 44%. Same deal in the playoffs, but Shaq also averaged 2 more blocks per game than Hakeem. And lets not act like Shaq was even in his prime when he faced Hakeem.

I think your numbers are a bit off.
Here is some footage from game 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd1D-u8oAfo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hRoMOAirnU

Last edited by elementally morale : 03-22-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:51 PM   #87
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I struggle with that last statement.

One could argue that Larry was every bit as good a total offensive player as Jordan. I don't think you could make a legit argument either way for or against either one of them in that department.

But it's the defensive side of the ball that really makes it an obvious choice to me. Michael has an argument as the GOAT perimeter defender, Bird is nowhere near that.
You could easily make the case that Larry was a better offensive player than Jordan. Clearly a more complete offensive game. That part isn't even debatable.

Don't forget. Jordan wasn't even a D.Wade level shooter for about half of his career. He was excellent at getting to the rim, but his mid range shooting ability has been severely exaggerated over the years. That part didn't really develop til later. When people remember his off the ball catch and shoot game and making super quick decisions in the post, that's really from later in his career. That wasn't there from the beginning.

I think Jordan's passing ability is slightly underrated, but the problem is it wasn't really what he was looking to do. It's not like he averaged 3 assists, but he COULD have had more if that's what he was looking to do. Can't really give him credit for what he hypothetically could do, but didn't.

There's one * though. the NBA was pretty weak defensively until the very late 80's-early 90's.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:53 PM   #88
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
I think your numbers are a bit off.
Here is some footage from game 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd1D-u8oAfo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hRoMOAirnU


No, Those numbers are real head to head for every game they played against each other. Now your talking about just the 95 finals, where Hakeems numbers were better. I was talking about the overall playoff numbers. Shaq destroyed Hakeem the second time they met in the playoffs, overall Shaq had better playoff stats, and regular season stats. I also saw all the games and Shaq did get schooled in the finals, there's no denying that. When shaq matured it was a different story. Anyway, the guys extreme bias in that earlier post is what I was refuting. He was acting like Shaq only won in a weak center era, when he came up in the time of DRob, Ewing, Mourning, Hakeem, Mutombo, Smits, and Sabonis. Shaq had his way with all of them at some point, with only Hakeem schooling him regularly early in his career. By the way, I got those numbers from the head to head finder on basketball reference.com
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:59 PM   #89
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
You could easily make the case that Larry was a better offensive player than Jordan. Clearly a more complete offensive game. That part isn't even debatable.

Don't forget. Jordan wasn't even a D.Wade level shooter for about half of his career. He was excellent at getting to the rim, but his mid range shooting ability has been severely exaggerated over the years. That part didn't really develop til later. When people remember his off the ball catch and shoot game and making super quick decisions in the post, that's really from later in his career. That wasn't there from the beginning.

I think Jordan's passing ability is slightly underrated, but the problem is it wasn't really what he was looking to do. It's not like he averaged 3 assists, but he COULD have had more if that's what he was looking to do. Can't really give him credit for what he hypothetically could do, but didn't.

There's one * though. the NBA was pretty weak defensively until the very late 80's-early 90's.

Jordan is a depth at every facet of baseketball offesively. Bird was definately better at some parts of offense. But there wasnt anything Jordan coukdnt do. Bird coukd not put the ball on the floor and score off the dribble. Thats the difference.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:00 PM   #90
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
The point is: Jordan could have easily had much better opponents than he did have. Had he had much better opponents, he would not have 6 rings. He would have 2 or 3. Maybe just 1. He would not be any worse a player, but he sure wouldn't be labelled the GOAT by society with 1 ring alone. Not even with 2 or 3 rings.

To make a long story short: Circumstances.

Ok, I think I understand the point that you're making. Yes circumstances matter, but it's not as if Jordan was placed in any more favorable circumstances than guys like Magic, Bird, or Kobe; he actually had less favorable circumstances than those guys.

I think my confusion stemmed from the unrealistic caliber of the teams you guys were making, while at the same time making a point of "equal" circumstances. Ya'll were basically taking teams that were talented enough to push the Bulls to the brink as is, and replacing their second best player with one of the best players ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
Announcers were calling him the greatest by the late 80s, when he had 0 rings. Wilt and Hakeem are in 95% of peoples' top 10 lists even though they have 2 championships each.

Plus everybody could technically have had better competition.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember serious talk of Jordan being the best ever really starting until after the 1992' finals. Looking over some of my archives, it would seem as if that's the case as well.

There were mentions of it here and there, but it wasn't widespread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
It was after 1992, the Olympics and the Dream Team in Barcelona when he started to become a worldwide icon.

That jives with my memory as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
Peak Bird and peak Shaq were no worse than peak Jordan.

I somewhat disagree with this, I'd say peak Bird was a tiny step below, and peak Shaq was a tiny step above peak Jordan. A lot of that comes down to opinion though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
Jordan was a better defensive player (though he is nowhere near the best perimeter defender of all time, but he is good).
This statement just comes across as biased, sorry . I think you could make a reasonable case for him anywhere in that 2-8 range, but saying "nowhere near" just comes across as bias.


Quote:
Bird was a better offensive player though. He (Bird) was more efficient, not only with his shot but with his allaround offensive numbers. And he was a much better passer and playmaker.

Magic, Bird, and Jordan are my top three offensive players ever, in that order.
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