Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2013, 09:48 PM   #106
DonDadda59
Lord High Executioner
 
DonDadda59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Killing Fields
Posts: 12,741
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
To several posters: I have no problem with anyone claiming Jordan was the best player ever. I'm a bit at odds when I see some young people claiming nobody else was even near him ever, and I'm almost sure said poster started watching the game 3 years ago and even prime Shaq is history to him.

Yeah, that's nice and all but saying "hey Jordan wouldn't be considered GOAT if Wilt Chamberlain played on the Jazz or prime Shaq on Phoenix" is a completely fallacious and nonsensical argument... especially considering Jordan's Bulls swept Shaq and co. when they were at full strength

But good try though
DonDadda59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:03 PM   #107
tpols
7-time NBA All-Star
 
tpols's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,791
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
Ok, I think I understand the point that you're making. Yes circumstances matter, but it's not as if Jordan was placed in any more favorable circumstances than guys like Magic, Bird, or Kobe; he actually had less favorable circumstances than those guys.
Ok. . Maybe I should've taken Clyde off of portland instead of porter. But is Clyde really that much better than pippen? Anyways, the point I was trying to make was to give the other GOAT candidates teams in Jordans era that would have similar supporting casts to him.

MJ had scottie, kukoc, Rodman, grant, armstrong, Kerr and a bunch of other guys in his prime.

I'm saying you give Bird a mid 90s Ewing and role players, Kareem Stockton, Wilt Mullin and spree, and magic I guess, now, Terry porter.

And anyone of those guys could lead their squads past the Bulls. Jordan wouldn't dominate Birds team because Bird, despite being less individually dominant, makes his teammates better than MJ makes his, which would balance it out. Same thing with Magic.

And I believe Wilt and Kareem could have as big an overall impact on the court as MJ could, if anything because the Bulls had no big men to stop them.
tpols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:05 PM   #108
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,587
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by elementally morale
To several posters: I have no problem with anyone claiming Jordan was the best player ever. I'm a bit at odds when I see some young people claiming nobody else was even near him ever, and I'm almost sure said poster started watching the game 3 years ago and even prime Shaq is history to him.

I agree with this. I usually disregard a certain quote that is used often... somewhere along the lines off:

"Even people who don't watch basketball or play it... know who Michael Jordan is !".
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:05 PM   #109
comerb
National High School Star
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
Shaq

Does anybody else find it ironic that he's only considered the "MDE" for the 3 years of his career where he played with another top 10 GOAT?

His Orlando teams were stacked, got swept by Hakkeem in the finals.

His Lakers teams didn't go anywhere until Kobe developed into a top 5 player in the league

Dude played with 3 of the best guards in his era. 1 top 10 GOAT 1 top 25 GOAT.

Great player, but the "MDE" thing gets tossed around way to much, you're not really the "MDE" when you couldn't get it done with Penny, got swept by a Hakeem led Rockets team and only won championships when you had a top 2 player in the League playing beside you.

Dominant? yes, MDE? no

I hated Shaq. Still do.

But he isn't overrated. The dude was a ****ing beast.
comerb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:08 PM   #110
tpols
7-time NBA All-Star
 
tpols's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,791
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

The comparison had NOTHING to do with saying MJ had more help than other superstars.

It was to put all of the highest GOAT candidates on a hypothetical battlefield to fight against each other with equally talented teams.
tpols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:09 PM   #111
Legends66NBA7
Apex
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sauga
Posts: 19,587
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Yeah, that's nice and all but saying "hey Jordan wouldn't be considered GOAT if Wilt Chamberlain played on the Jazz or prime Shaq on Phoenix" is a completely fallacious and nonsensical argument... especially considering Jordan's Bulls swept Shaq and co. when they were at full strength

But good try though

This is also true.

I'm confident in saying that even if ____ is considered GOAT, whoever is in the Top 3-5 etc... aren't far off or on his level. The hypothetical scenarios aren't necessary.
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:12 PM   #112
comerb
National High School Star
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Magic, he was not a good defender and no one seems to hold him accountable for it when you start making top 10 lists. Meanwhile he's surrounded by guys that are good to great two way players.
comerb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #113
NumberSix
Big Booty Hoes!!
 
NumberSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Internets
Posts: 23,200
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by comerb
Magic, he was not a good defender and no one seems to hold him accountable for it when you start making top 10 lists. Meanwhile he's surrounded by guys that are good to great two way players.
It wasn't a very strong defensive era most of his career.

What surprises me more is how nobody mentions how he was a mediocre shooter. Guess people just read stats and didn't actually see him play.
NumberSix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:34 PM   #114
DatAsh
Local High School Star
 
DatAsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,879
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
The comparison had NOTHING to do with saying MJ had more help than other superstars.

It was to put all of the highest GOAT candidates on a hypothetical battlefield to fight against each other with equally talented teams.

The reason your post took such heat was because you weren't really making equal teams.

With the Knicks, you took a team that was 95% as good as the Bulls to begin with, and replaced their second best player with a (generally accepted)top 6 player ever.

A team of Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Charles Smith, Anthony Mason, Doc Rivers, and Greg Anthony would probably beat the Bulls 8 times out of ten, but I don't think that is really indicative of whether or not Bird is a better player. They were a championship caliber 60 win team that pushed the Bulls to 6 games without Bird.

The Portland example was even worse, as they were seen by most at the time as the more stacked team to begin with. Taking their second best player and replacing him with a top 3 player ever just makes the comparison silly. Again, I'd take that team 9 times out of 10 over the Bulls in a 7 game series, but it has very little to do with whether or not Magic is a better player than Jordan.

I think I understand your point, but it was poorly executed.

Last edited by DatAsh : 03-22-2013 at 10:41 PM.
DatAsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:52 PM   #115
ILLsmak
Life goes on.
 
ILLsmak's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,953
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaximandro1
Olajuwon played 6 playoff games against the Spurs (prime Robinson + Rodman)

Olajuwon vs Spurs




Shaq played 30 playoff games against the Spurs.He scored 30+ points four times.

Shaq vs Spurs

lol, different teams?

-Smak
ILLsmak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:10 PM   #116
jlip
Good college starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 3,342
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Yeah, that's nice and all but saying "hey Jordan wouldn't be considered GOAT if Wilt Chamberlain played on the Jazz or prime Shaq on Phoenix" is a completely fallacious and nonsensical argument... especially considering Jordan's Bulls swept Shaq and co. when they were at full strength

But good try though

I don't particularly care about who the GOAT is, but who were you talking about was at "full strength?" Shaq's Magic and Jordan's Bulls only faced each other twice in the playoffs, and it is arguable that the team that lost each time was not at full strength. In '95 when the Bulls lost to the Magic the claim is that MJ was still "rusty", and there was no Rodman. In '96 when the Magic lost to the Bulls the claim was that Horace Grant (who was basically the MVP of the '95 series) was injured.
jlip is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:20 PM   #117
Micku
NBA rookie of the year
 
Micku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,118
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
It wasn't a very strong defensive era most of his career.

What surprises me more is how nobody mentions how he was a mediocre shooter. Guess people just read stats and didn't actually see him play.

No he wasn't later in his career. Starting from 1984ish he started to make those shots. He picked his spots very well and knocks them down more often than not. Many teams make the mistake of leaving him open and he made them pay back then. In the late 80s, he was hitting 3s efficiently. 38%

Magic was ok defensively. He was a better help defender, same as Bird. They both were pretty good help defenders because of their height and length.

Last edited by Micku : 03-22-2013 at 11:26 PM.
Micku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:28 PM   #118
jlip
Good college starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 3,342
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
No he wasn't later in his career. Starting from 1984ish he started to make those shots. He picked his spots very well and knocks them down more often than not. Many teams make the mistake of leaving him open and he made them pay back then. By 1987, you don't leave him open. In the late 80s, he was hitting 3s efficiently. 38%

Magic was ok defensively. He was a better help defender, same as Bird. They both were pretty good help defenders because of their height and length.

Plus Magic was a pg. Offensively it was not his job to "shoot". It was his primary job to create easy shots for everyone else. His rather unique strength was actually his ability to completely dominate a game without having to shoot, despite yet being the 2nd highest scoring pg in NBA history.
jlip is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:43 PM   #119
97 bulls
5-time NBA All-Star
 
97 bulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,926
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
The reason your post took such heat was because you weren't really making equal teams.

With the Knicks, you took a team that was 95% as good as the Bulls to begin with, and replaced their second best player with a (generally accepted)top 6 player ever.

A team of Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Charles Smith, Anthony Mason, Doc Rivers, and Greg Anthony would probably beat the Bulls 8 times out of ten, but I don't think that is really indicative of whether or not Bird is a better player. They were a championship caliber 60 win team that pushed the Bulls to 6 games without Bird.

The Portland example was even worse, as they were seen by most at the time aYys the more stacked team to begin with. Taking their second best player and replacing him with a top 3 player ever just makes the comparison silly. Again, I'd take that team 9 times out of 10 over the Bulls in a 7 game series, but it has very little to do with whether or not Magic is a better player than Jordan.

I think I understand your point, but it was poorly executed.
i understand your reasoning, but consider this. The Knicks never beat the Bulls with Jordan. And needed seven game, home court advantage, and a bad call to beat them without Jordan.

Then based on youre scenario, you take away Wilkins and Starks. The only two players the Knicks had that they felt had a chance against Jordan. I think at best the Knicks beat the Bulls a 4 out of 10 times under youre Bird scenario.
97 bulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:55 PM   #120
DatAsh
Local High School Star
 
DatAsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,879
Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
i understand your reasoning, but consider this. The Knicks never beat the Bulls with Jordan. And needed seven game, home court advantage, and a bad call to beat them without Jordan.

Then based on youre scenario, you take away Wilkins and Starks. The only two players the Knicks had that they felt had a chance against Jordan. I think at best the Knicks beat the Bulls a 4 out of 10 times under youre Bird scenario.

They took the Bulls, with Jordan, to 6 games. I'd be willing to bet that subbing Bird for Starks would push them pretty comfortably over the edge.
DatAsh is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy