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Old 03-22-2013, 11:08 PM   #121
97 bulls
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
They took the Bulls, with Jordan, to 6 games. I'd be willing to bet that subbing Bird for Starks would push them pretty comfortably over the edge.
Did you even ponder my post Ash? The Knicks barely beat the Bulls without Jordan. And never beat them with Jordan. Now I understand adding Bird woukd be a huge upgrade in talent. But whos gonna defend Jordan? Greg Anthony? Not all that glitters is gold bro. Basketbal is about matchups.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #122
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Did you even ponder my post Ash? The Knicks barely beat the Bulls without Jordan. And never beat them with Jordan. Now I understand adding Bird woukd be a huge upgrade in talent. But whos gonna defend Jordan? Greg Anthony? Not all that glitters is gold bro. Basketbal is about matchups.
That's what I was initially thinking..

The Scottie Pippen led bulls were dead even with the Ewing led knicks. 7 games down to the wire.

So you throw Michael on one side and Larry on the other..
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:18 PM   #123
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Did you even ponder my post Ash? The Knicks barely beat the Bulls without Jordan. And never beat them with Jordan. Now I understand adding Bird woukd be a huge upgrade in talent. But whos gonna defend Jordan? Greg Anthony? Not all that glitters is gold bro. Basketbal is about matchups.

I don't see them having any more trouble than any other playoff team defending Jordan. That team was one of the best defensive teams ever, and losing Starks isn't going to change that all that much. Defending Jordan has to be a team effort, no one player does it alone.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:30 PM   #124
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Before Retirement:

Kobe so far.

Last edited by gengiskhan : 03-23-2013 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:31 PM   #125
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I don't see them having any more trouble than any other playoff team defending Jordan. That team was one of the best defensive teams ever, and losing Starks isn't going to change that all that much. Defending Jordan has to be a team effort, no one player does it alone.
Its most definitely a team effort. But it has to start somewhere. You must have someone capabke of at least having some semblance of man defense on Jordan.

Id like youre scenario much better if the Knicks keep Starks or Wilkins (preferably Wilkins) and replace Charles Smith with Bird. And even still I think itd be close. But with the edge going to the Knicks
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:15 AM   #126
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Shaquille O'neal - people call him the most dominant ever but most of those people forget he was swept 8 times in the PO and he always had great guard to bailed his ass in those championship years he won.. You know those were not just ordinary guard, one of them has a case to be the GOAT, the other one is arguably a top 5 sg of all time.. In the other team he didnt won a championship, he also had great guard as teammates.. In Orlando he had Penny hardaway the 2nd best guard of his era only behind the great Michael Jordan.. In phoenix Steve Nash a 2 times MVP, arguably a top 5 pg of all time.. In Boston Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen.. In Cleveland, LeBron James the only non guard in the list but also played pg in his early career in Cleveland.. All of them were in their primes when he Shaq teamed up with them maybe with the exception of Ray Allen.. Yeah, the most dominant my ass..

Michael Jordan - perennial 1st round loser without Pippen and the sad part is, he got swept in all those 1st round exit.. Cant win a championship without Pippen the best perimeter defender of all time, a top 20 player of all time and could've been a top 10 easily if only he had his own team.. MJ retired in 1993 but his team was still one of the best in the league and one call away from making the finals and would've a legitimate chance of winning the championship that year if not for the bad officiating.. Imagine the bulls winning the championship that year without Mike.. It would've been a big dagger in Mike legacy..
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:52 AM   #127
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by KOBE143
Shaquille O'neal - people call him the most dominant ever but most of those people forget he was swept 8 times in the PO and he always had great guard to bailed his ass in those championship years he won.. You know those were not just ordinary guard, one of them has a case to be the GOAT, the other one is arguably a top 5 sg of all time.. In the other team he didnt won a championship, he also had great guard as teammates.. In Orlando he had Penny hardaway the 2nd best guard of his era only behind the great Michael Jordan.. In phoenix Steve Nash a 2 times MVP, arguably a top 5 pg of all time.. In Boston Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen.. In Cleveland, LeBron James the only non guard in the list but also played pg in his early career in Cleveland.. All of them were in their primes when he Shaq teamed up with them maybe with the exception of Ray Allen.. Yeah, the most dominant my ass..

Michael Jordan - perennial 1st round loser without Pippen and the sad part is, he got swept in all those 1st round exit.. Cant win a championship without Pippen the best perimeter defender of all time, a top 20 player of all time and could've been a top 10 easily if only he had his own team.. MJ retired in 1993 but his team was still one of the best in the league and one call away from making the finals and would've a legitimate chance of winning the championship that year if not for the bad officiating.. Imagine the bulls winning the championship that year without Mike.. It would've been a big dagger in Mike legacy..
Shaq > Kobe. Live with it phaggit.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:41 AM   #128
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Kevin McHale perhaps. Always very good, yes, but I hear arguments that make him seem better than he really was:

- Best PF of the 80s
- Best post game ever
- Scored 26ppg once, and would have done that every year if he wasn't surrounded by so much talent and/or if he didn't kill his foot in the 1987 Playoffs
- Excellent defender
- Great glue guy / perfect second fiddle


And even those these are all good arguments, when people talk about him, he sounds like he was as good as Tim Duncan, but only had less minutes. And that's simply not how well he was admired during the 80s. It was always Larry's team (heck, they even went down to 42 wins when Bird got injured). Maybe he was living in his shadow (McHale rarely got MVP votes). Maybe McHale really is as good as he is on paper (btw, during his prime he was around .200 ws/48; as good as Kobe Bryant).
But I just don't recall hearing that much acclaim about him while I was growing up. Perhaps he's not overrated, but I feel like his status has gained a lot since.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:18 AM   #129
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by NumberSix
Shaq > Kobe. Live with it phaggit.
I never mention Kobe in my post you stupid wannabe lakers fan..
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:00 PM   #130
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
Shaq

Does anybody else find it ironic that he's only considered the "MDE" for the 3 years of his career where he played with another top 10 GOAT?

His Orlando teams were stacked, got swept by Hakkeem in the finals.

His Lakers teams didn't go anywhere until Kobe developed into a top 5 player in the league

Dude played with 3 of the best guards in his era. 1 top 10 GOAT 1 top 25 GOAT.

Great player, but the "MDE" thing gets tossed around way to much, you're not really the "MDE" when you couldn't get it done with Penny, got swept by a Hakeem led Rockets team and only won championships when you had a top 2 player in the League playing beside you.

Dominant? yes, MDE? no

Kobe wasn't top-10 in 2000-2002. He had some great playoff series, particularly that last run, but he wasn't displaying anything top-10 in nature. Shaq was. He was phenomenal in those three runs.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:08 PM   #131
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by NumberSix
To a degree, Michael Jordan. Some people act like he was the best ever at every aspect of the game, never missed a big shot.
stop
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #132
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
It's fine to have him at the top spot.. He actually has the best case of anyone. But people literally scoff at you if you say someone else is better. If you put..

Larry Bird on the Knicks(instead of starks)
Magic on Portland(instead of porter)
Wilt on the Warriors(instead of webber)
Kareem on the Jazz(instead of malone)


In the 90s with equal teams Is MJ going to lead the Bulls past all of them every year? There's probably a different champion every year.
So if you put all-time greats who had their primes in several different eras and put them all in one league there would be more parity? Interesting....
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:32 PM   #133
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Magic. Bird was clearly better than Magic during his prime. Magic didn't become a better player 'til Bird had back problems. Bird's supporting cast was weaker than Magic's.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:37 PM   #134
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Kobe wasn't top-10 in 2000-2002. He had some great playoff series, particularly that last run, but he wasn't displaying anything top-10 in nature. Shaq was. He was phenomenal in those three runs.

Maybe he wasn't Top 10 in 2000 (Top 12-15 at worst), but he wasn't Top 10 in 2001 and in 2002? You smokin that good shit son.

2001: 28/6/5 Regular Season ; 29/7/6 Postseason ; Lakers almost swept the playoffs
2002: 25/5/5 Regular Season ; 26/6/4 Postseason + clutch performances throughout the playoffs especially in the series against the Spurs

In what world do these things not equate to someone being a Top 10 player?
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:26 PM   #135
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Default Re: Which Players Have Gotten the Most Overrated Since Retirement

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Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Jordan played in an era that had the most skilled and outright dominant big men of any era... and he was the best player of his generation... as a perimeter player who never had a dominant big to play with. Just look at how the league looked when he retired the first time.

94- Hakeem won MVP, David Robinson won the scoring title, Hakeem vs Ewing in the finals.

95- Robinson won MVP, Shaq won the scoring title, Hakeem vs Shaq in the finals.

This was in a time where the league wasn't geared towards perimeter stars, it was very clearly a big man's league and Jordan absolutely dominated all of them. It took him leaving for 2 seasons for them to accomplish anything.

You can point to any team/player as you and your accomplice fallaciously did here and say 'oh, yeah he/they were great but it would've been different if players from different eras somehow magically transported to their era'.

But the truth is, that's impossible and the facts remain the same.
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