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Old 05-13-2013, 01:26 PM   #91
Rameek
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by tpols
Then why should he be disciplined? Students not being able to challenge teachers is the reason they don't give a fvck.
Exactly why I would never teach again. Most people have no idea what it entails to teach.

But to have a child/teenager feel they have the right to challenge an adult is where society has failed. When good teachers have to face children/teenagers that dont know boundaries the system is failing. And I am not even saying bad teachers because there are plenty of them. But the lack of respect by children/teenagers for their parents let alone a teacher is a deterrent. Then you meet the children/teenagers parents and you realize they have the lack of self control, self discipline and self respect as their child/teenager.

I would never ever suggest anyone to become a teacher unless they can go to a quality school to teach.

As far as the video its possible that teacher is there for the paycheck or they were worn down.

Like Gatorkid said I loved teaching and coaching in Japan for the most part.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:44 PM   #92
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by Rameek
Exactly why I would never teach again. Most people have no idea what it entails to teach.

But to have a child/teenager feel they have the right to challenge an adult is where society has failed. When good teachers have to face children/teenagers that dont know boundaries the system is failing. And I am not even saying bad teachers because there are plenty of them. But the lack of respect by children/teenagers for their parents let alone a teacher is a deterrent. Then you meet the children/teenagers parents and you realize they have the lack of self control, self discipline and self respect as their child/teenager.

I would never ever suggest anyone to become a teacher unless they can go to a quality school to teach.

As far as the video its possible that teacher is there for the paycheck or they were worn down.

Like Gatorkid said I loved teaching and coaching in Japan for the most part.

The irony is strict discipline generates rebellion. It is ok to be strict, but you have to find a balance. Some kids struggle in school because the curriculum is boring and too rigid, for example, as stated above, they don't teach you math anymore; they tell you to use a calculator and memorize the answers. I'm sorry to say, but memorizing a bunch of sh*t and repeating it on a test is boring as f*ck, and I can understand why kids become disinterested in school. It doesn't make kids who feel this way bad students; it's not a one way street. In China, they firmly believe if a kid fails, it is the fault of the teacher; in America, we always blame the kids, but noone ever criticizes the curriculum and the method of teaching.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:59 PM   #93
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by Rameek
Exactly why I would never teach again. Most people have no idea what it entails to teach.

But to have a child/teenager feel they have the right to challenge an adult is where society has failed. When good teachers have to face children/teenagers that dont know boundaries the system is failing. And I am not even saying bad teachers because there are plenty of them. But the lack of respect by children/teenagers for their parents let alone a teacher is a deterrent. Then you meet the children/teenagers parents and you realize they have the lack of self control, self discipline and self respect as their child/teenager.

I would never ever suggest anyone to become a teacher unless they can go to a quality school to teach.

As far as the video its possible that teacher is there for the paycheck or they were worn down.

Like Gatorkid said I loved teaching and coaching in Japan for the most part.
Yea.. the reason kids dont respect teachers is because.. are teachers really experts in their topics? Do you need to be some sort of senior scientist to teach biology? Do you have to have a phd in cold war history to teach American History 2?

Nope. You dont really need shit. Just read from the book, make some powerpoints and make the kids mindlessly regurgitate it.

When I think of teaching I tihnk old type greek schools where a scholar would take a kid under his wing and inspire him to be great in whatever field. Scoietys to big and full of morons to do that now.. so nothing will change. The good students will always show an interest though so well still progress.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:26 PM   #94
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by tpols
Thats all well and good.. but Im just saying if the kid was saying something true without being offensive(calling her a bitch, throwing something etc.) then why should he be punished for speaking the truth?
I feel you here. This is certainly a unique situation and the simple fact this kid's semi-outburst has led to discussions like this one all across the nation and/or world proves that sometimes challenging the status quo, even if it's at the wrong time and in the wrong place, can provide us an opportunity to think twice about what we're doing and why we're doing it.

That said, classrooms do tend to have rules that discourage misbehavior, dissent and a general lack of disrespect. In this particular case, I think it can be argued as to whether this student was breaking any rules. Then again, we'd probably also have to know what he did to earn his suggested removal from class in the first place.

Based on his rant alone though, I don't think this particular case would warrant any sort of punishment. Generally speaking though, I do not believe classrooms can afford to open the floor to any and all students to go on diatribes against the system whenever they personally feel it's prudent.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:35 PM   #95
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

The kid in the video did nothing wrong (during the video)... Children should be able to challenge teachers (intellectually not physically). That is apart of true learning. When a teacher can put to rest the questions in a child's mind? then the child will begin to accept the knowledge being offered.

Some kids will call BS and a competent teacher should be able to handle those situations without simply throwing the kid out of class for questioning them. True learning is a process much deeper than simple indoctrination..

school would be alot more stimulating if it wasnt simply indoctrination and teaching kids to 'pass the test' instead of teaching them how to think critically.

Ive done a small bit of teaching (ive mostly been in administration through my career) but I plan to do some teaching and I know I will need to be creative to get around the stiff curriculums and testing outlines that bog teachers down.

Teaching kids to learn how to "think" is the key. Teaching them to take pride in being able to think critically in all the things they do will help them be more curious in life and make better decisions for themselves in the future.

Some kids are really thirsty for that knowledge and they should have more opportunities to get it than they currently do
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #96
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by Rasheed1
The kid in the video did nothing wrong (during the video)... Children should be able to challenge teachers (intellectually not physically). That is apart of true learning. When a teacher can put to rest the questions in a child's mind? then the child will begin to accept the knowledge being offered.

Some kids will call BS and a competent teacher should be able to handle those situations without simply throwing the kid out of class for questioning them. True learning is a process much deeper than simple indoctrination..

school would be alot more stimulating if it wasnt simply indoctrination and teaching kids to 'pass the test' instead of teaching them how to think critically.

Ive done a small bit of teaching (ive mostly been in administration through my career) but I plan to do some teaching and I know I will need to be creative to get around the stiff curriculums and testing outlines that bog teachers down.

Teaching kids to learn how to "think" is the key. Teaching them to take pride in being able to think critically in all the things they do will help them be more curious in life and make better decisions for themselves in the future.

Some kids are really thirsty for that knowledge and they should have more opportunities to get it than they currently do

If you can manage to do that without getting fired, then you will be one of those rare teachers a lot of kids credit for their success in life.

The above poster got in trouble for trying to teach a student how to arrive at a math answer rather than letting him take the shortcut with a calculator.

Sadly, the curriculum overburdens the teachers with materials which can stifle learning. Learning should be a slow process, but if too much material is being thrown at the students, there won't be any time to reflect on the material, hence why they are told to just memorize as fast as possible and pass it on a test.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:55 PM   #97
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by tpols
Yea.. the reason kids dont respect teachers is because.. are teachers really experts in their topics? Do you need to be some sort of senior scientist to teach biology? Do you have to have a phd in cold war history to teach American History 2?

Nope. You dont really need shit. Just read from the book, make some powerpoints and make the kids mindlessly regurgitate it.

When I think of teaching I tihnk old type greek schools where a scholar would take a kid under his wing and inspire him to be great in whatever field. Scoietys to big and full of morons to do that now.. so nothing will change. The good students will always show an interest though so well still progress.
I cannot agree with you in this regard. While teachers are not required to hold Ph.D's, they are required to be highly qualified in their given field. It doesn't mean they're geniuses, but it does usually mean they have more than enough knowledge on a given subject to educate high school level students and below.

I believe it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to expect students to respect teachers because most often teachers are folks who have put an inordinate amount of time and effort into finding ways to ensure those students are able to carve something worthwhile and useful out their lives. Does every teacher deserve blind respect? Clearly not. But I do believe it'd be silly to excuse a student's disrespect simply because a teacher does not hold a Ph.D.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #98
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

It's hard to teach children that lack self discipline and self control and understanding boundaries.

Children/Teenagers without these qualities but for the sake of argument can try to tell any teacher they dont want to learn x y z at a whim because its boring and unstimulating. Not everything is fun and exciting. There are things that are what they are.

Learning is applied knowledge. It does require some memorization but teachers are not teaching to entertain students. That requires time consuming planning that a teacher doesnt have the time in the day to for every lesson. No one is debating that students shouldnt be engaged.

Children/Teenagers have a rebellious nature that will go against anything they deem unworthy of their time no matter what a teacher does.

Again in the video had the teacher been a packet making sit down and used inappropriate language and crossed the line then she has opened up this behavior.

Again I site the type of rebellious nature that a teacher should not have to deal with.... This statement is the absolutely asinine (I am not saying you are or your opinion isnt valid)


Quote:
tpols: Yea.. the reason kids dont respect teachers is because.. are teachers really experts in their topics? Do you need to be some sort of senior scientist to teach biology? Do you have to have a phd in cold war history to teach American History 2?

Nope. You dont really need shit. Just read from the book, make some powerpoints and make the kids mindlessly regurgitate it.

These are the statements heard daily by a teacher from a child/teenager. The nerve of a child to question a teacher in such a manner is utterly disrespectful.

Everyone here has a style they want a teacher to present to make education work. And the ones that do not get that style then its there right to be rebellious?

As much as the school system has failed America so has the parents of children that believe a child/teenager gets to question an adult at every turn.

In what occupation can a subordinate question a supervisor or manager or president or owner of a company or establishment outright. What would the outcome be for that child/teenager/employee in the real world?

Last edited by Rameek : 05-13-2013 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #99
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by Rameek

In what occupation can a subordinate question a supervisor or manager or president or owner of a company or establishment outright. What would the outcome be for that child/teenager/employee in the real world?
If you have a bad manager or boss who is a terrible decision maker doesnt get shit done right, etc. youre right you cant question him really. All you can do is do your work so well as to build a good rep/provide value and then rise up to a position where you can do something.. but then youll just have another guy ahead of you anyways.

Teachers you have a little more leeway.. they dont dictate your salary, and if you question them but study hard and get As, theres nothing they can really do to you. Im not saying you can be disrespectful, and this kid was approaching the boundary.. but you should be able to at least privately talk to the teacher about their methods.

And yes youre right, you can never question credentials, of course. Even if it may be true in some cases.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:39 PM   #100
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
If you have a bad manager or boss who is a terrible decision maker doesnt get shit done right, etc. youre right you cant question him really. All you can do is do your work so well as to build a good rep/provide value and then rise up to a position where you can do something.. but then youll just have another guy ahead of you anyways.

Teachers you have a little more leeway.. they dont dictate your salary, and if you question them but study hard and get As, theres nothing they can really do to you. Im not saying you can be disrespectful, and this kid was approaching the boundary.. but you should be able to at least privately talk to the teacher about their methods.

And yes youre right, you can never question credentials, of course. Even if it may be true in some cases.
Agreed as a student you have more power to change what happens in the classroom but you dont have to challenge the teacher disrespectfully unless the teacher crosses the line. Students can go to parents and administration which is appropriate.

My problem always has been students think they are on equal footing with a teacher. This is what makes boundaries important. Children/Teenagers lack the self discipline, self control etc because they dont recognize they are not adults yet but they want to be treated with the same level as an adult. They are not adults they are not mature, knowledgeable, and wise enough for that equal status.

This is why I say parents have failed because children/teenagers dont respect that distinction.

As you said in the real world you would never behave in such a manner whether the teacher is right or wrong. But for some reason in our society starting with parents this line has been blurred.

If a teacher crosses those boundaries then they get what they deserve. But from my experience only paying students understand these boundaries or in the Asian countries. Not that children/teenagers dont challenge the system or the teachers and hold them accountable but in America too many children/teenagers try to think like adults and demand that respect and equal footing when it just isnt so.

For example I would never have my children in an environment where the teacher is not doing there job and students are disruptive in the classroom.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:44 PM   #101
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

In New York I had to spend the better part of a month or 2 setting up discipline and commanding and earning the respect of the students. This is the fault of our Society and parents. I have to motivate, discipline, make engaging lessons, teach children boundaries, teach respect, make sure they do homework, do well on standardize test, grade test, deal with home issues, hormonal changes etc etc....

I go to Japan I can just teach and deal with wayward outliers as the situation arises. Or paying students (students with tuition) I can just go teach etc etc



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Old 05-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #102
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
In New York I had to spend the better part of a month or 2 setting up discipline and commanding and earning the respect of the students. This is the fault of our Society and parents. I have to motivate, discipline, make engaging lessons, teach children boundaries, teach respect, make sure they do homework, do well on standardize test, grade test, deal with home issues, hormonal changes etc etc....

I go to Japan I can just teach and deal with wayward outliers as the situation arises. Or paying students (students with tuition) I can just go teach etc etc




thats just the way it is here.. we should be past the point of complaining about it if you are teaching here..

commanding respect and teaching children boundaries is simply apart of the job.. it can be done, and it is done everyday by plenty of teachers

the part of a teacher's job (especially in bad neighborhoods) that is unfair imo is the trap that is set for teachers...

children are a product of their environments and school is only a portion of their environments... If teachers are to be held accountable by the state and by the school board for outcome of the children? then the teachers will need more resources, support from community, state, and school board.

You do a wonderful job teaching a child discipline and critical thinking during the school day, but if the child lives in a dysfunctional environment? then the kid simply goes home at night and has all your hard work undone by the dysfunctional forces that dominate his life.

it is unfair to have some of these AYP programs that put the onus on teachers to do the impossible while at the same time the state and the school board continues to cut the resources and play games with the school districts for profit and political purposes..

Its plain as day that the needs of the children do not come first, and that has to change if anything positive is going to happen in public education in this country. There are plenty of hard working teachers who can work with almost any kid if the teachers receive the kind of supports they need from the higher ups..

Without the support? its just a trap where the teachers are scapegoated for failing kids and a failing educational system.

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:23 PM   #103
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Sheed I wholeheartedly agree and I am not making excuses for terrible teachers but then have a small sliver of understanding what a good or normal teacher has to go through in a day. Low income or otherwise environment. People saying teachers get overpaid really? When you have to literally raise these children yourself for the few hours a day you are with them? I've got to teach children/teenagers values, self respect, motivate, self esteem, social norms (That is the parents job!) etc etc make test, grade test, give papers, grade papers, give quizes, grade quizes, prepare for standardized test, lesson plan, make sure its engaging and entertaining... To have to deal with lack of parental support or involvement until the child comes home to complain about the teacher or the lack of support and resources from the school system and administration.

I say hold bad teachers accountable but it isnt easy being a teacher. They are not overpaid.

I chose to give it up here in the States.

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:53 PM   #104
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Teachers are generally overpaid anyway. $40,000-$100,000 to work 8 hours/day, 180 days a year?
More like $40-60,000 to work 8 hours a day, then go home and grade and prepare for the next day's classes, all while taking care of their own kids.

And since most parents rely on the public school system to raise their kids, the job itself ends up being quite a bit more than merely "teaching."

"But they get the summer off." I won't say most, but many teachers have to supplement their incomes at least by working a lot of the summer. Many more have to take on extra grading or teaching opportunities besides their main day job.

Teachers should be paid enough to live comfortably. Any given teacher you pick at random probably works harder than you and makes less. Not that a person should be paid strictly according to "how hard they work," but people who perform a valuable service to society should be able to afford to feed a family.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:00 PM   #105
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
the part of a teacher's job (especially in bad neighborhoods) that is unfair imo is the trap that is set for teachers...

children are a product of their environments and school is only a portion of their environments... If teachers are to be held accountable by the state and by the school board for outcome of the children? then the teachers will need more resources, support from community, state, and school board.

You do a wonderful job teaching a child discipline and critical thinking during the school day, but if the child lives in a dysfunctional environment? then the kid simply goes home at night and has all your hard work undone by the dysfunctional forces that dominate his life.

it is unfair to have some of these AYP programs that put the onus on teachers to do the impossible while at the same time the state and the school board continues to cut the resources and play games with the school districts for profit and political purposes..

Its plain as day that the needs of the children do not come first, and that has to change if anything positive is going to happen in public education in this country. There are plenty of hard working teachers who can work with almost any kid if the teachers receive the kind of supports they need from the higher ups..

Without the support? its just a trap where the teachers are scapegoated for failing kids and a failing educational system.
Good stuff. I agree with you here. As a teacher, I actually like the idea of being held accountable. However, I'm not entirely convinced measuring a teacher's worth and pay based upon their student's quiz and test scores would be the way to go.

As you said, a student's ability to learn and progress is only partly reliant upon a teacher's in-class ability. Home environment, parental guidance, and socio-economic level are just a few of the other major factors that can heavily affect a student's ability to pass a test or improve upon their test knowledge over a given period of time.

I feel as though the last thing we'd want to do is turn student grades and test results into a means of competition amongst teachers. If we feel educators are teaching to the test now, just wait to see what happens if their student's test scores begin affecting their salary.

But that's pretty much the system we're headed toward right now (if we're not there already). Immersion, critical thought, and understanding are all secondary qualities to teaching right now, only coming after the priorities of unstoppable forward progress (comprehension notwithstanding), benchmark meeting, and solid standardized test scores that never stop improving year by year by year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifton
More like $40-60,000 to work 8 hours a day, then go home and grade and prepare for the next day's classes, all while taking care of their own kids.

And since most parents rely on the public school system to raise their kids, the job itself ends up being quite a bit more than merely "teaching."

"But they get the summer off." I won't say most, but many teachers have to supplement their incomes at least by working a lot of the summer. Many more have to take on extra grading or teaching opportunities besides their main day job.

Teachers should be paid enough to live comfortably. Any given teacher you pick at random probably works harder than you and makes less. Not that a person should be paid strictly according to "how hard they work," but people who perform a valuable service to society should be able to afford to feed a family.
Truth. Moreover, in Michigan teachers are required to continuously pursue higher education. Even though I earned my Education degree and own a teacher's certificate, I'm given a window of time for which I must return to college and take at least 18 more credits worth of classes just to keep my certificate active. Then, obviously, after I finish those 18 credits, I'll be met with another deadline shortly thereafter.

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