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Old 05-13-2013, 02:09 PM   #106
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek

In what occupation can a subordinate question a supervisor or manager or president or owner of a company or establishment outright. What would the outcome be for that child/teenager/employee in the real world?
If you have a bad manager or boss who is a terrible decision maker doesnt get shit done right, etc. youre right you cant question him really. All you can do is do your work so well as to build a good rep/provide value and then rise up to a position where you can do something.. but then youll just have another guy ahead of you anyways.

Teachers you have a little more leeway.. they dont dictate your salary, and if you question them but study hard and get As, theres nothing they can really do to you. Im not saying you can be disrespectful, and this kid was approaching the boundary.. but you should be able to at least privately talk to the teacher about their methods.

And yes youre right, you can never question credentials, of course. Even if it may be true in some cases.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:39 PM   #107
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by tpols
If you have a bad manager or boss who is a terrible decision maker doesnt get shit done right, etc. youre right you cant question him really. All you can do is do your work so well as to build a good rep/provide value and then rise up to a position where you can do something.. but then youll just have another guy ahead of you anyways.

Teachers you have a little more leeway.. they dont dictate your salary, and if you question them but study hard and get As, theres nothing they can really do to you. Im not saying you can be disrespectful, and this kid was approaching the boundary.. but you should be able to at least privately talk to the teacher about their methods.

And yes youre right, you can never question credentials, of course. Even if it may be true in some cases.
Agreed as a student you have more power to change what happens in the classroom but you dont have to challenge the teacher disrespectfully unless the teacher crosses the line. Students can go to parents and administration which is appropriate.

My problem always has been students think they are on equal footing with a teacher. This is what makes boundaries important. Children/Teenagers lack the self discipline, self control etc because they dont recognize they are not adults yet but they want to be treated with the same level as an adult. They are not adults they are not mature, knowledgeable, and wise enough for that equal status.

This is why I say parents have failed because children/teenagers dont respect that distinction.

As you said in the real world you would never behave in such a manner whether the teacher is right or wrong. But for some reason in our society starting with parents this line has been blurred.

If a teacher crosses those boundaries then they get what they deserve. But from my experience only paying students understand these boundaries or in the Asian countries. Not that children/teenagers dont challenge the system or the teachers and hold them accountable but in America too many children/teenagers try to think like adults and demand that respect and equal footing when it just isnt so.

For example I would never have my children in an environment where the teacher is not doing there job and students are disruptive in the classroom.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:44 PM   #108
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

In New York I had to spend the better part of a month or 2 setting up discipline and commanding and earning the respect of the students. This is the fault of our Society and parents. I have to motivate, discipline, make engaging lessons, teach children boundaries, teach respect, make sure they do homework, do well on standardize test, grade test, deal with home issues, hormonal changes etc etc....

I go to Japan I can just teach and deal with wayward outliers as the situation arises. Or paying students (students with tuition) I can just go teach etc etc



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Old 05-13-2013, 03:01 PM   #109
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
In New York I had to spend the better part of a month or 2 setting up discipline and commanding and earning the respect of the students. This is the fault of our Society and parents. I have to motivate, discipline, make engaging lessons, teach children boundaries, teach respect, make sure they do homework, do well on standardize test, grade test, deal with home issues, hormonal changes etc etc....

I go to Japan I can just teach and deal with wayward outliers as the situation arises. Or paying students (students with tuition) I can just go teach etc etc




thats just the way it is here.. we should be past the point of complaining about it if you are teaching here..

commanding respect and teaching children boundaries is simply apart of the job.. it can be done, and it is done everyday by plenty of teachers

the part of a teacher's job (especially in bad neighborhoods) that is unfair imo is the trap that is set for teachers...

children are a product of their environments and school is only a portion of their environments... If teachers are to be held accountable by the state and by the school board for outcome of the children? then the teachers will need more resources, support from community, state, and school board.

You do a wonderful job teaching a child discipline and critical thinking during the school day, but if the child lives in a dysfunctional environment? then the kid simply goes home at night and has all your hard work undone by the dysfunctional forces that dominate his life.

it is unfair to have some of these AYP programs that put the onus on teachers to do the impossible while at the same time the state and the school board continues to cut the resources and play games with the school districts for profit and political purposes..

Its plain as day that the needs of the children do not come first, and that has to change if anything positive is going to happen in public education in this country. There are plenty of hard working teachers who can work with almost any kid if the teachers receive the kind of supports they need from the higher ups..

Without the support? its just a trap where the teachers are scapegoated for failing kids and a failing educational system.

Last edited by Rasheed1 : 05-13-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:23 PM   #110
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Sheed I wholeheartedly agree and I am not making excuses for terrible teachers but then have a small sliver of understanding what a good or normal teacher has to go through in a day. Low income or otherwise environment. People saying teachers get overpaid really? When you have to literally raise these children yourself for the few hours a day you are with them? I've got to teach children/teenagers values, self respect, motivate, self esteem, social norms (That is the parents job!) etc etc make test, grade test, give papers, grade papers, give quizes, grade quizes, prepare for standardized test, lesson plan, make sure its engaging and entertaining... To have to deal with lack of parental support or involvement until the child comes home to complain about the teacher or the lack of support and resources from the school system and administration.

I say hold bad teachers accountable but it isnt easy being a teacher. They are not overpaid.

I chose to give it up here in the States.

Last edited by Rameek : 05-13-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:53 PM   #111
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Teachers are generally overpaid anyway. $40,000-$100,000 to work 8 hours/day, 180 days a year?
More like $40-60,000 to work 8 hours a day, then go home and grade and prepare for the next day's classes, all while taking care of their own kids.

And since most parents rely on the public school system to raise their kids, the job itself ends up being quite a bit more than merely "teaching."

"But they get the summer off." I won't say most, but many teachers have to supplement their incomes at least by working a lot of the summer. Many more have to take on extra grading or teaching opportunities besides their main day job.

Teachers should be paid enough to live comfortably. Any given teacher you pick at random probably works harder than you and makes less. Not that a person should be paid strictly according to "how hard they work," but people who perform a valuable service to society should be able to afford to feed a family.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:00 PM   #112
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
the part of a teacher's job (especially in bad neighborhoods) that is unfair imo is the trap that is set for teachers...

children are a product of their environments and school is only a portion of their environments... If teachers are to be held accountable by the state and by the school board for outcome of the children? then the teachers will need more resources, support from community, state, and school board.

You do a wonderful job teaching a child discipline and critical thinking during the school day, but if the child lives in a dysfunctional environment? then the kid simply goes home at night and has all your hard work undone by the dysfunctional forces that dominate his life.

it is unfair to have some of these AYP programs that put the onus on teachers to do the impossible while at the same time the state and the school board continues to cut the resources and play games with the school districts for profit and political purposes..

Its plain as day that the needs of the children do not come first, and that has to change if anything positive is going to happen in public education in this country. There are plenty of hard working teachers who can work with almost any kid if the teachers receive the kind of supports they need from the higher ups..

Without the support? its just a trap where the teachers are scapegoated for failing kids and a failing educational system.
Good stuff. I agree with you here. As a teacher, I actually like the idea of being held accountable. However, I'm not entirely convinced measuring a teacher's worth and pay based upon their student's quiz and test scores would be the way to go.

As you said, a student's ability to learn and progress is only partly reliant upon a teacher's in-class ability. Home environment, parental guidance, and socio-economic level are just a few of the other major factors that can heavily affect a student's ability to pass a test or improve upon their test knowledge over a given period of time.

I feel as though the last thing we'd want to do is turn student grades and test results into a means of competition amongst teachers. If we feel educators are teaching to the test now, just wait to see what happens if their student's test scores begin affecting their salary.

But that's pretty much the system we're headed toward right now (if we're not there already). Immersion, critical thought, and understanding are all secondary qualities to teaching right now, only coming after the priorities of unstoppable forward progress (comprehension notwithstanding), benchmark meeting, and solid standardized test scores that never stop improving year by year by year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifton
More like $40-60,000 to work 8 hours a day, then go home and grade and prepare for the next day's classes, all while taking care of their own kids.

And since most parents rely on the public school system to raise their kids, the job itself ends up being quite a bit more than merely "teaching."

"But they get the summer off." I won't say most, but many teachers have to supplement their incomes at least by working a lot of the summer. Many more have to take on extra grading or teaching opportunities besides their main day job.

Teachers should be paid enough to live comfortably. Any given teacher you pick at random probably works harder than you and makes less. Not that a person should be paid strictly according to "how hard they work," but people who perform a valuable service to society should be able to afford to feed a family.
Truth. Moreover, in Michigan teachers are required to continuously pursue higher education. Even though I earned my Education degree and own a teacher's certificate, I'm given a window of time for which I must return to college and take at least 18 more credits worth of classes just to keep my certificate active. Then, obviously, after I finish those 18 credits, I'll be met with another deadline shortly thereafter.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 05-13-2013 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #113
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifton
More like $40-60,000 to work 8 hours a day, then go home and grade and prepare for the next day's classes, all while taking care of their own kids.

And since most parents rely on the public school system to raise their kids, the job itself ends up being quite a bit more than merely "teaching."

"But they get the summer off." I won't say most, but many teachers have to supplement their incomes at least by working a lot of the summer. Many more have to take on extra grading or teaching opportunities besides their main day job.

Teachers should be paid enough to live comfortably. Any given teacher you pick at random probably works harder than you and makes less. Not that a person should be paid strictly according to "how hard they work," but people who perform a valuable service to society should be able to afford to feed a family.
I think it depends on the teacher to be honest.. Like my mom is a teacher of special ed kindergarden kids. Kids who curse all day, fight, come from bad environments.. call her TAs bitches, spit, throw things. Pretty much the worst thing you can imagine.

And her job is to try and haul them in from their bad habits.. thats a whole other level of teaching right there.

Then you have my high school spanish teacher, who was spanish himself knew the language since a little kid who dealt with us being pretty respectable older kids who were going to a good HS and cared at least a bit about material.. All he had to do was teach for half hour out the book and make us do exercises, check our HW, do tests/quizes. Not that crazy of reposnibility. He used to joke with us all the time and was a decent teacher, but its clear he didnt have some crazy workload.

3 80 minute teaching blocks and 1 80 minute block to work in his office.. 730-3ish 5 days a week with tenure only 5 years away to be locked into a good salary and full benfits for life?

Id take that in a heart beat right now. Hes one of the lucky teachers though.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #114
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by Rake2204
Truth. Moreover, in Michigan teachers are required to continuously pursue higher education. Even though I earned my Education degree and own a teacher's certificate, I'm given a window of time for which I must return to college and take at least 18 more credits worth of classes just to keep my certificate active. Then, obviously, after I finish those 18 credits, I'll be met with another deadline shortly thereafter.
In most states this is common practice.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:46 PM   #115
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Truth. Moreover, in Michigan teachers are required to continuously pursue higher education. Even though I earned my Education degree and own a teacher's certificate, I'm given a window of time for which I must return to college and take at least 18 more credits worth of classes just to keep my certificate active. Then, obviously, after I finish those 18 credits, I'll be met with another deadline shortly thereafter.
Something that's very strange to me is how increasingly hard it is to become a public school teacher, while at the same time, high school graduates are seriously dumb, undereducated people. I include myself here. When I graduated high school, I knew nothing. And I was one of the smart ones, and my school was good. But I had class-class-test mentality, and at the end of it I basically knew no history, science, or literature that happened before the Alabama Bus Boycott. I didn't know a foreign language and I didn't understand my own. And I had zero moral or character formation other than whatever you get in team sports.

And it's like... ok... all my teachers over age 40 have Master's degrees. Great. That doesn't help me understand the world around me and those who dwell in it, at all. But if I have to match Charlemagne with four multiple choice options on a test, I have excellent test-taking strategies to help me do that.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:24 PM   #116
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifton
Something that's very strange to me is how increasingly hard it is to become a public school teacher, while at the same time, high school graduates are seriously dumb, undereducated people. I include myself here. When I graduated high school, I knew nothing. And I was one of the smart ones, and my school was good. But I had class-class-test mentality, and at the end of it I basically knew no history, science, or literature that happened before the Alabama Bus Boycott. I didn't know a foreign language and I didn't understand my own. And I had zero moral or character formation other than whatever you get in team sports.

And it's like... ok... all my teachers over age 40 have Master's degrees. Great. That doesn't help me understand the world around me and those who dwell in it, at all. But if I have to match Charlemagne with four multiple choice options on a test, I have excellent test-taking strategies to help me do that.
That about sums it up. There's a lot of folks out there desperately trying to quantify all aspects of education but in their haste, they're quantifying but a small, small portion of what matters and treating it as if it's all that matters.

How do you quantify intriguing discussion? How do you measure whether a teacher is able to bring out the best in a student? What test is provided to show how a student's moralistic outlook was positively affected by a life-changing teacher role model? Instead, we test to see if everyone understands the Pythagorean Theorem and we judge an educator's worth based upon the results.

While we're at it, we insist teachers go back and take some classes, any classes, so they can eventually add what is oftentimes a worthless title to their name (many of the classes offered for teachers to re-new their certificates are generalized busy-work classes with no all-encompassing direction).

As I said before, this is it:

"What was educationally significant and hard to measure has been replaced by what is educationally insignificant and easy to measure. So now we measure how well we taught what isn't worth learning." - Arthur Costa

Last edited by Rake2204 : 05-13-2013 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #117
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Before my current job, I spent a few months at an inner city elementary school in south St. Petersburg (very rough part of town). My biggest problems were the following: I came from a small, rural town in Ohio, and I had zero clue on how to deal with these kids, knowledge of where they came from, and understanding of how to deal with these situations, none of which I could EVER possibly relate to. I never recieved any proper training. New inner city teachers NEED intensive training They provided me a mentor teacher, gave me the curriculum, I was told that it was "gonna be tough" and that's about it.

Admittedly, these kids ate me alive. Most of my time was spent dealing with behavior issues, there was zero parental involvement (many of them had disconnected phones), and I left each day feeling frustrated beyond belief. My days were long, as I started at around 7 am and got home at about 6-6:30. Other teachers were routinely cussed out. That never happened to me, but fights, kids running out of class, and destroying classroom materials was a common occurance.

Through it all, I was unsure about my own approach. Too much yelling--they tune you out. Keeping an steady tone--sign of weaknesses. It takes a really special individual to teach at these schools. 2 months into the school year, I was placed on administrative leave.

I now know why they recruited me out of state. People currently in the district don't want these jobs. Very few can hack it.

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Old 05-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #118
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Best part is the kid was probably doing that to fck with his teacher and get a laugh/attention from his classmates. I seriously doubt that kid is all rah rah about education and was just being a brat.

I don't know if there overpaid/underpaid but I have no idea why some people would want to deal with 14-17 year old kids. I had a few shitty teachers, but when I think about it, the mental strength some of these people have not to just unload and beat the piss outta some of these kids is crazy.

Maybe why you don't get highly qualified and educated people in HS. They'd get a handful of kids that wanted to actually learn, handful who didn't give a shit, and a handful that wanted to make there life miserable. Just makes sense to teach college instead of HS, atleast that's the way I'd look at it if I was some really smart educated guy.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:40 PM   #119
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
Good stuff. I agree with you here. As a teacher, I actually like the idea of being held accountable. However, I'm not entirely convinced measuring a teacher's worth and pay based upon their student's quiz and test scores would be the way to go.

As you said, a student's ability to learn and progress is only partly reliant upon a teacher's in-class ability. Home environment, parental guidance, and socio-economic level are just a few of the other major factors that can heavily affect a student's ability to pass a test or improve upon their test knowledge over a given period of time.

I feel as though the last thing we'd want to do is turn student grades and test results into a means of competition amongst teachers. If we feel educators are teaching to the test now, just wait to see what happens if their student's test scores begin affecting their salary.

But that's pretty much the system we're headed toward right now (if we're not there already). Immersion, critical thought, and understanding are all secondary qualities to teaching right now, only coming after the priorities of unstoppable forward progress (comprehension notwithstanding), benchmark meeting, and solid standardized test scores that never stop improving year by year by year.

Truth. Moreover, in Michigan teachers are required to continuously pursue higher education. Even though I earned my Education degree and own a teacher's certificate, I'm given a window of time for which I must return to college and take at least 18 more credits worth of classes just to keep my certificate active. Then, obviously, after I finish those 18 credits, I'll be met with another deadline shortly thereafter.

This is required in most states and is why the majority of people get a Master's degree. Once you have your Master's you are not required to take any more credits. So you mine as well get the degree if you have to take classes anyway.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:07 AM   #120
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Default Re: Kid tells teacher like it is

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Originally Posted by tpols
Then why should he be disciplined? Students not being able to challenge teachers is the reason they don't give a fvck.

He was disrupting class.
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