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Old 06-06-2014, 05:36 PM   #706
el gringos
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knickscity
I hop Phil doesnt get wrapped up into the "name chasing/overrated player" nonsense.

We already have Bargnani, couldnt even imagine have Josh Smith and his dumb brother from another, Larry sanders.

Phil has scouts....go find our Shelvin mack, our Cartier Martin, our Pero Antic our Mike Scott.
Are you advocating tanking or just wanting less talented players playing on the team?

You pick players off a team going nowhere that had to have teams lay down for them to make the playoffs as the team you want to emulate?

Very strange post.

Do you think Larry sanders, smith, and bargnani all got deals just from having "big names" or so you think any of it had to do with a high level of talent.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:38 AM   #707
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Are you advocating tanking or just wanting less talented players playing on the team?

You pick players off a team going nowhere that had to have teams lay down for them to make the playoffs as the team you want to emulate?

Very strange post.

Do you think Larry sanders, smith, and bargnani all got deals just from having "big names" or so you think any of it had to do with a high level of talent.
The Hawks didn't tank, but ironically the players you want are all over paid and none made the playoffs,

The players aren't good players with the contracts they hold.

I picked the Hawks because they found cheap quality talent, but they are not the only ones to do
it.

That's the type of talent Phil will be looking for. He ccertainly won't be doing any of your trade ideas. We had Isaiah here once alread.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:55 AM   #708
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

This is why whomever they decide to be coach will determine what kind of talent that will play and wont play. Woody and Larry Brown coaches arent big into playing young, new or inexperienced players.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:57 AM   #709
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Are you advocating tanking or just wanting less talented players playing on the team?

You pick players off a team going nowhere that had to have teams lay down for them to make the playoffs as the team you want to emulate?

Very strange post.

Do you think Larry sanders, smith, and bargnani all got deals just from having "big names" or so you think any of it had to do with a high level of talent.
You missread his post. He was mentioning finding gems or guys that can contribute not trading for those guys.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:34 AM   #710
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knickscity
The Hawks didn't tank, but ironically the players you want are all over paid and none made the playoffs,

The players aren't good players with the contracts they hold.

I picked the Hawks because they found cheap quality talent, but they are not the only ones to do
it.

That's the type of talent Phil will be looking for. He ccertainly won't be doing any of your trade ideas. We had Isaiah here once alread.
I meant teams laid down to allow Atlanta into that last spot. Miami and Toronto both tanked games to atl late and then played the guys they sat out their next games.


I agree 100% that the Knicks need to get better at finding hidden gems, but to expect that to be the way to build the core is crazy. Still need top flight talent in the top half the roster IMO.


I'm not sure I'll ever understand the mindset that if a guy can't lead his team to success as their best player he could never be a 3-4-5th best player on a good team. Larry sanders as the bucks best player. Is that really a guy whose best fit is as a #1 option, or would him on the weak side playing with real nba scorers be his best use?


If Isaiah had Carmelo to start his plan would have worked different. He was getting #2's and needing them to be 1's. Do you remember which year the celtics won? That's right it was the first year they we're put together.


Running the same team out over and over doesn't actually get you closer to win. The "let's just give amare and Carmelo another year together to figure it out" mindset, where did that go. Rosters should be turned over when the fits aren't there, I'd only support keeping guys together once you see a fit. Right now you know that your best player is Carmelo and your next 2 biggest contracts don't fit with him. But if your fanbase doesn't expect to see an effort to win I guess you don't have to.


Here's to being able to waste another season if they want to and it will all be ok because they can sell you on "it's best to wait for 2015". Or better yet after Lebron is locked in and love has been traded they could convince you to "wait for 16/durant"


I think many of you are in for a surprise and that Phil is smart enough to see that he has to do it by trades

Last edited by el gringos : 06-10-2014 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:05 AM   #711
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

I've tried on numerous occasions how trades generally work you dont seem to grasp the concept so you will stay lost.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:31 AM   #712
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
I've tried on numerous occasions how trades generally work you dont seem to grasp the concept so you will stay lost.
I've searched for your explaining of trades and all I've found is you saying that you've already explained it and you saying that teams don't want expirers anymore.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:53 AM   #713
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
I've searched for your explaining of trades and all I've found is you saying that you've already explained it and you saying that teams don't want expirers anymore.
Trades are for tanking, Adding a piece(s) to a championship run, Adding a player to sell tickets, trade picks to because the team has 15 players or vise versa.

Why expirers arent as desirable anymore....

http://dimemag.com/2014/02/new-cba-d...rade-deadline/
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:22 PM   #714
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
Trades are for tanking, Adding a piece(s) to a championship run, Adding a player to sell tickets, trade picks to because the team has 15 players or vise versa.

Why expirers arent as desirable anymore....

http://dimemag.com/2014/02/new-cba-d...rade-deadline/
So expirers aren't as desirable anymore because........ Fear of paying luxury tax. The #1 advantage the Knicks have is ability to spend. And you are counting that out?


If a team will only make trades for the reasons you gave then no trades will ever be made because...... It takes 2 to trade. They both have to have different objectives.


To think that expiring deals no longer have value is naive. Are you saying teams will never want to "start over" and that other teams would never want to "get better"?


The bucks (whether you like the players or not) are a perfect example. Why would they want an expirer? Is it ridiculous to think they'd be better off without 35 million into sanders/illyasova/ok mayo each of the next 3 years? Why is it so crazy to think they might want to build around Jabari Parker and Giannes and position themselves for another top 5 pick next year when they could add free agents to those 3 pieces?


And then from the Knicks side, maybe it's not mil or Detroit. How can you really say you are confident that you will for sure get something better in free agency then you could get in return for chandler and amare's salary spaces.


This team is short handed and your other 2 big contracts don't fit with the best player. So instead of adding players it makes sense to give away all your chips to hope to get 1 better chip if things went perfect. Who's to say you don't end up with another version of chandler and amare?



Do you at least realize that to get capspace you will have to give up the rights to chandler, amare, bargnani; and prob shumpert?
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:40 AM   #715
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Not a Knicks fan, but I'm a fan of their players...

Now that NYK has a new FO (Jackson), new coach (Fisher)... are they primed and ready to win now? Chandler and Melo could, in theory, do some damage in the East. You guys could be one piece away.

Or since Fisher is a new coach, would you rather just tear it down and rebuild?

As I said, not a Knicks fan, but a fan of their players, so my choice would be to rebuild....

Trade 1:
Melo to Wolves
Love to Suns
Budinger, Frye, Len, Green, all 3 PHX first round picks to Knicks.

Wolves get a great fit for their team. Dieng showed he could play in this league, as can Pek, so now adding a dominant 3 keeps talent level very similar, but perhaps a better team fit.
Suns don't give up any of their "big 4" player-assets... Dragic, Bledsoe, Morris twins, yet get a top 5-10 player in the league. Trading 2 non-lottery picks, and the last lottery pick, is hardly a steep price to pay, IMO.
Knicks add some youth (Len) and three picks to aid their rebuild.

Trade 2:
Chandler to Thunder
Perk, Collison, Perry Jones III, both first round picks to Knicks

Thunder get a defensive stopper and "floor general" on a fair deal. If Chandler's healthy, he's nasty.
Knicks get a project (that has not shown much), a useful backup, and Perk... but they also get both of this years' Thunder picks!

Trade 3:
JR Smith, Bargs to Bulls
Boozer, 19th pick, to Knicks

Bulls (even if they don't realize it) need an infusion of shooting (JR, Bargs) and playmaking (JR). Taj starts, and Thibs plays starters heavy minutes, so Bargs won't be in there for much more than 15 a game. Also an expiring deal. JR Smith is the other shot creator on offense. I'm a big believer in a strong system, like the Bulls or Spurs, not being too negatively affected by a player like JR. I'm confident Thibs can keep him in line.
Knicks get ANOTHER pick and a little additional cap flexibility (that was sacrificed in earlier trades), and also lose JR.

New team:
Felton/Prigs
Hardaway/Shumpert
Green/Budinger/Jones
Boozer/Collison/Frye
Amare/Len/Perk

That gives the Knicks 13 players.... In a perfect world, Perk would be waived/cut (or Amare would retire, and Knicks could retire some of his salary).
Knicks would also have the following picks in this year's draft:
Picks 14, 16, 18, 19, 21, 27, 29

Wow! Even if PHX and Chicago were unwilling to part with all of their respective picks, it still leaves the Knicks with 4-6 picks in a deep draft when they otherwise wouldn't have had a single one.

TL;DR:
Knicks trade Melo, Chandler, JR, Bargs
Get..
7 picks in this draft,
7 players, including 21.2m in expiring contracts, two young players, and Budinger
While also "sending out" 51m in contracts and only receiving back 45 (aka: Cutting 6m this year, plus 21.2m in expiring, so cutting 27.2m for 2015 summer, not counting current deals that would expire that summer).
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:36 AM   #716
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Too bad no one wants to take on salary because of this summer and next summer.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:45 AM   #717
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
Too bad no one wants to take on salary because of this summer and next summer.
If you are referring to my post, no one in those deals is taking on salary... except Chicago. A lot of expirers changing hands....
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:22 AM   #718
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
If you are referring to my post, no one in those deals is taking on salary... except Chicago. A lot of expirers changing hands....

Its not just your post I just think most people dont realize that although most of the stars have player options & early termination teams want to be cap friendly this summer for those players and definitely next summer.

Once those options are resolved then things will probably pick up.
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Old 06-12-2014, 12:23 PM   #719
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Also teams will be very careful about adding pieces that will make there place undesirable.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:00 PM   #720
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
Also teams will be very careful about adding pieces that will make there place undesirable.
True. And it's a good point that not too much will be totally resolved until we know what Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Dirk, Duncan are all doing (hint: they're staying).

That being said, I can't help but think you're referring to my trades... and since they're expirers being dealt, I don't see how a contract leaving the team would make it undesirable.
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