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Old 05-23-2013, 01:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

There are topics against Ialam ALL the time. There were 2-3 this week. The worst of which get deleted because they are way more offensive to muslims than the anti christian ones are to you.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I think religion probably the most dangerous thing the world has ever seen. Nothing makes more otherwise rational people sound and behave like idiots. From nuts flying planes into buildings, crusades for hundreds of years, burning women as witches, self mutilation, killing people to please the sun god, hundreds of servants being buried with a dead king to serve him in the afterlife, idiots protesting at dead soldiers funerals over gay people being...allowed to exist....and on and on and on.

It is flat out dangerous.

People would kill each other no matter what. But as it stands...waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of it is because of something an old book says.

Just try to live your life and do the right thing.

What you believe is none of my business. But so many faiths instruct followers to make it my business....

Its hard to get away from really. The only way to not see people dying over faith every day is to not watch coverage of world events. Every damn day....some maniac cuts off a soldiers head, blows up a bus full of kids, pretends raped women can prevent getting pregnant through magic, or suggests gay people are subhuman.

Because of a goddamn book. From thousands of years ago.....that at best...is just an attempt to guide people towards doing the right thing.

And there are people who would kill me and my children for saying so.

And then act like im the evil one.

All of it really needs to go away.

I think you are being very simplistic. Suicide bombing, cruzades, wars, all of that are caused by many things other than religion. For instance, researches show that it's politics, not religion, the main reason for suicide attacks. In the end, even if religion is involved, most conflicts are about land, money and power. If religion disappeared from the face of the world, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would remain. Also stupid people would be do stupid things no matter what. You see south american killing each other because of soccer. You see criminals killing people son they can have the money to buy stupid things like an IPAD. If not for religion, stupid people would probably just find another bs excuse to do stupid things.

Also, some non believers tend to only focus on the bad side of religion (there are bad things, of course), like saying it takes religion for a bad person to do bad things (maybe that's true). But they did not mention that it likewise takes religion for a bad person to do good things. I've never seen a criminal turns his life around because he found atheism. The AA's of the world exists because of religion.

Some atheists also don't like to mention that several researches show the positive impact of religion in someone's life. For instance, a religious person is less likely to commit suicide, less likely to abuse drugs (and more likery to recover from drug abuse) than atheits. Religion also in general has a positive impact in someone's health*.

Lastly, the charity. Do you even imagine how many poor people are helped by religious orphanages, senior homes, hospitals and schools all around the world? If not for religious institutions, who would take care of them all? Countries all around the word? The same countries that leave 1 billion people living in misery?

Think about the U.S alone. What would happen if the Catholic Church ceased to exist?

Quote:
Almost 7,000 schools would close in the United States alone. Already under-performing public schools suffering from overcrowding would likely collapse under the weight of about 2.6 million children showing up at the door expecting a free education. You think test scores are low now? Wait until 2.6 million more kids show up.

Over 200 Catholic colleges and universities with over 600,000 students would suddenly be without a school, leaving supply diminished and demand unchanged thus skyrocketing the already exorbitant cost of college.

The over 200 Catholic residential homes for children, or orphanages, which serve 50,000 children in a given year would be gone. The children would be shuttled into already crammed government programs or lost completely.

The over 84 million people who receive care at any of about 600 Catholic hospitals every year would be forced to seek help elsewhere, clogging up hospitals. The more than 15 million emergency room visits per year to Catholic hospitals would be headed to other hospitals already suffering from financial losses of emergency rooms. Emergency vehicles would also have increased travel times, driving up fatality rates.

The Catholic health care network, which also includes over 400 health care centers and over 1,500 specialized homes, would shut down. Many assisted living facilities, adult day care and senior housing would be gone.

Many crisis pregnancy centers would vanish, leaving women without options or help when they need it most.

Many homes for pregnant women or abused women would disappear, forcing women to the streets or a return to a perhaps abusive relationship from which they sought escape.

Nearly 70% of U.S. dioceses sponsor housing or housing-related services. That would stop, and homeless numbers would rise.

Over 135 national and hundreds more local Catholic lay organizations that serve the Church and provide services in communities throughout the United States like the Knights of Columbus and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul would disappear. To get an idea, in a given year, the K of C donated $139,711,619 to charity and volunteered 64,039,706 hours. All of that would be gone. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul has about 120,000 members serving 15 million people per year, which include 646,820 home visits, 360,596 hospital visits, 361,420 aged daycare visits, 159,257 prison visits, and $392 million in total expenditures and volunteer services. All gone.

The Catholic Church and organizations supported by the Catholic Church are the largest care providers of HIV and AIDS in the world. All of that would be gone.

The Catholic Campaign for Human Development, which has granted hundreds of millions to thousands of community-based, self-help projects initiated and led by people living in poverty, would cease all grants, leading to the destruction of programs aimed to help the poor.

Catholic Relief Services spends millions to help provide clean water, improve agriculture, and educate the young in countries with little access to any of it. But that too would all be gone along with programs that deliver mosquito nets to prevent malaria in Africa, without which thousands more would likely die needlessly of malaria.

Catholic Charities—which alone is the fourth largest charity in the United States, above the Red Cross and the Salvation Army, and consists of 1,400 agencies that run soup kitchens, temporary shelters, child care, and refugee resettlement all around the country and provides help for 6.5 million people, regardless of religious, social, or economic backgrounds—would be gone.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/matth...#ixzz2U8eKaEGT

Now, imagine it in a poor country and all religious institutions, not only the Catholic Church... Not a pretty sight. I've been to cities in South America where the Church is the only help available to the poor people.

So, let's be fair. Religion has some major problems, but let's not pretend the world would be magically be a better place without it (Mao and Stalin's regimes can be seen as examples of a f****d up place without religion). And this thread was to show that yes, we believers and non believers can leave in peace and respect eachother's views. It's sad to see that some religious and atheists can't do that.








*
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakers_forever
Sure.

Religious affiliation and suicide attempt: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/arti...ticleid=177228

Religious Aspects of Substance Abuse and Recovery (more substance abuse among atheists): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...324.x/abstract

Religion linked to happy life:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7302609.stm

Very Religious Americans Lead Healthier Lives
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145379/Re...ier-Lives.aspx

Harvard Professor study says religious people are better citizens and neighbors:

http://www.pewforum.org/Religion-New...tudy-says.aspx

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...umn15_ST_N.htm


Impact of religion on health.



http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/58/1/53/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12008795
http://heb.sagepub.com/content/25/6/700.abstract
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...90?via=sd&cc=y


Off course all this does not imply that religion is true, it might be just a placebo effect. But still it does show that religion has a lot of positive effects and a world without religion might be worse.

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I think religion probably the most dangerous thing the world has ever seen. Nothing makes more otherwise rational people sound and behave like idiots. From nuts flying planes into buildings, crusades for hundreds of years, burning women as witches, self mutilation, killing people to please the sun god, hundreds of servants being buried with a dead king to serve him in the afterlife, idiots protesting at dead soldiers funerals over gay people being...allowed to exist....and on and on and on.

It is flat out dangerous.

People would kill each other no matter what. But as it stands...waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of it is because of something an old book says.

Just try to live your life and do the right thing.

What you believe is none of my business. But so many faiths instruct followers to make it my business....

Its hard to get away from really. The only way to not see people dying over faith every day is to not watch coverage of world events. Every damn day....some maniac cuts off a soldiers head, blows up a bus full of kids, pretends raped women can prevent getting pregnant through magic, or suggests gay people are subhuman.

Because of a goddamn book. From thousands of years ago.....that at best...is just an attempt to guide people towards doing the right thing.

And there are people who would kill me and my children for saying so.

And then act like im the evil one.

All of it really needs to go away.

You could have just stopped there and you would have made a better point.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspah
Religion is so fcking stupid.

Religion is for weak minded individuals who can't fathom dying and need some sort of belief to not be terrified of death even though its inevitable for all of us.

I don't belong to any religion, I just live life as a polite man trying to get his own out here. I'm an animal, i will die in the future.

Religion is silly and unbelievable since there's so many of them. All you religious nuts, what do you say about the fact there's 50 other religions that have different beliefs, x amount of gods, and do all kinds of things different than you? You're saying your religion is real and there's isn't? I'm pretty sure they believe there religion is the real one and you're full of it.

Know what I think? You're all full of it. Believe in what you want and let others chive on, you can't keep doing this stupid religion vs religion bullish!t.

Wrong.

There are other reasons. And I'd wager that the one you stated is not even the primary one.

But this tells us a lot about your internal psychology, Kaspah.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFERSON MONEY
Wrong.

There are other reasons. And I'd wager that the one you stated is not even the primary one.

But this tells us a lot about your internal psychology, Kaspah.

True. Those kind of atheists apparently can't see how they resemble the religious fundamentalists they hate so much. Radical atheist: "religion is for the week mindend" Religious fundie: atheism if for people without morals". Both intolerant douchebags.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #21
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

I dont need to believe in magic people looking down on me to do charity. And the world wouldnt either. There are plenty of good people who do good things without a book telling them to and im not crediting a book for that goodness inside them nor taking the credit from them for what they do.

MY grandma was a sunday school teacher as ive said before. Did a lot in the community. Worked with kids from like...the 30s on. You could credit what she did to her faith. But then...when I do some of the same things....what do I credit that to?

Some people are raised to help others. Some do it just for publicity. It gets done either way.

This world is full of people who dont seem to know what to do with themselves so they look for outside sources to set a path.

Its a weakness to me. It helps some. It leads some to....blow up children.

Overall I dont think its doing more good than harm.....unless you want to credit all goodness done by someone of faith to that faith.

And I just dont buy it. Good things dont require god forcing you to do it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

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INB4 miller-time skips school to spend a whole day spreading his atheist propaganda.

What do you mean? I already said my piece.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

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What do you mean? I already said my piece.

Jesus Christ, that was fast. Is there a topic specific notification system here that I don't know about? Or do you just sense when a thread about christianity is made? lol
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

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Old 05-25-2013, 06:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

Our first thought concerning religion in general seems to be based on the belief of a supernatural reality of human morality.

We tend to focus on the bad things of it because in the end, the main focus of religion in general is to influence human behavior.
It's not in our nature to obey commands or to accept changes in our natural behavior without first understanding the rewards or retributions attached to those commands.

So in the end, people tend to choose to be influenced by what they 'feel' attuned with. Some grow up with religion, some adopt it, and some are forced to adopt it. Others reject any concept of a spiritual reality and rather choose to live by the known natural laws.

Those who grow up religious, continue to be religious for several reason but mainly we could call this 'tradition'. Those who adopt religion change their moral identity or worldview. Those who reject a religion based on the supernatural adopt a religion based on faith on the human potential for perception and analysis. Either way, all people have some sort of law governing their lives.

So a question comes up: Is religion mankind's creation, or is the source found in another reality? or both? or none?

If religion is a reflection of humanity's expression, then religion is not the cause of the "good" or "bad" in the world, but only the filter through which those expressions are conveyed. And if religion goes beyond the natural reality we live in, then we would have to consider the possibility of a supernatural reality that may be an influence behind those subjective concepts.

We couldn't blame the evil in the world on something before defining 'evil' through a specific parameter.

A forced conclusion of this topic would be to understand that ethics and religion always go together. No matter the object of worship, whether it be a spiritual being, an object, a creature, an idea, or humanity itself, mankind has always remained a being with a nature for worship.

Pope Francis, with the intention of rescuing the image of his institution, makes the mistake of compromising some of the most central beliefs of Christianity, and even some central dogmas of the Catholic church.
Quote:
The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good.

It sounds nice, "tolerant and accepting", but that is heresy. Why identify yourself as a follower of the gospel of Jesus Christ that speaks about repenting from sin, and accepting the work done at the cross through the redemptive sacrifice in the death and resurrection of Jesus, if in the end you are going to deny the very essence of the faith?

The word of the apostle Paul says in the letter to the Galatians: "in Christ Jesus you are children of God through faith". What faith? The faith in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world from sin and death. Also in the letter to Romans: "those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Atheist don't believe in things like spirits or God. Then how can they be 'led' by the Spirit of God' or be 'children of that God'? It clearly says 'those who are led', so it infers a fraction or selection, not "all" as the Pope would like to say.

It's easy to contrast the simple and widely available scripture to those statements made by the Pope.
Yes. We have a duty to do good, but if we don't have a standard or measurement to define that 'good', then everyone will do what they 'feel' or 'think' is good.
In the scripture we have that standard in the person of Jesus Christ. His example is real because he lived among the sinners of his time but didn't condemn them, instead he drew them to him with his words of forgiveness.
That's why Pope Francis' message, even if it sounds nice and accepting, is based on error and not on the teachings of Christ. Jesus loved and taught about the kingdom of heaven, but also warned about the condemnation reserved for those who didn't accept him. Instead, Pope Francis wants to hide the consequences that denying Christ as Lord will bring to unbelievers. There is no accountability in his message. But God is a God of justice, and no evil deed will go unpunished. God is a God of holiness, and no unrepentant or sinful being can come to his presence.

I believe history has taught us that neither governments, nor any human law or moral standard has been able to bring that peace that the Pope would like us to believe can be obtained. There's always gonna be conflict as long as different worldviews are around. Throughout history, religious discrimination or persecution has also occurred, and it also won't stop people from believing what they want to believe. Religion will never be the answer, but Jesus Christ came to fulfill the works of the perfect religion, so that those who believe in his words, could become the children of God, not because of the works required by a religion but through faith in that perfect work done by Jesus, by the grace freely offered by God.
Now, that is a more welcoming and accepting offer than what Pope Francis would like to come up with. It's free! If God puts conviction in your heart then you take that offer and the work of God begins to change your behavior from a life of dispassionate religious observance to a life that is lived for others because you know that someone already lived, died, and lives for you too. That is the peace religion and the world cannot offer.
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:44 AM   #26
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which you worship,
Nor will you worship that which I worship.

....


To you be your Way, and to me mine.

on to you is your deen and on to me is mine

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Old 05-25-2013, 09:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

The ironic thing is that ALL mainstream religions were originally conceived as methods to control the minds of the masses. Judging from this thread, thousands of years later -- in some cases -- its still working like a charm.

The bottom line is that there is zero evidence of an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent entity who is interested in being intimately involved in every individual's life. None. It doesn't exist.

The actual history of the planet, and mankind's existence on it is the great untold secret that is being kept from us.

Needless to say, its obvious that the real history is completely different from what we're being fed. If it wasn't, there would be no need for organized religions at all.
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:44 AM   #28
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

It works like a charm. I amazes me at times how little progress humans have made.

Even when its obvious someone is full of shit people will follow them.

Scientology...

Founded by a science fiction writer...who said the best way to make money is to found a church.

So...he writes that the dark lord Xenu....trapped some of his people in earths volcanoes(then known as Teegeeack) and blew them up with atomic bombs.

And the souls of these aliens infected the young human race....and must be filtered out now. And the training and filtering...costs thousands of dollars.

Scientologists know this.

And accept it.

Mormons(very nice people for the record).....know Joseph Smith claims to have met a native american angel who...explained that humanity started in what...Jackson Mississippi? Gave him a new book(which he had to make 2 versions of when someone took the first to see if he could write it again.....seeing as god gave him the info...why not give it again) to add to the bible. Claimed Jesus came to america. Other wacky things.

So over the years....the american south is the cradle of life, black people bear the mark of cain and thus cant be preists in their church, and so on.

Rastafarians believe that this guy:



Was god himself. And wants them to get high.

Members of the nation of islam(some of which I am not proud to say...I am related to) believe that 6 thousand years ago a scientist named Yakub created white people in some evil plot to rule blacks.


People have been convinced that the sun is being pulled through the sky by a chariot, alien souls are why we get sad, and that a guy lived in the belly of a whale, the red sea was parted, a donkey talked to his owner, and that a loving god sent bears to murder 42 children for mocking a bald guy.

How...in this day...it manages to be accepted....is beyond me.

I get how you could fool someone a few thousand years ago. They couldnt look into these things. They couldnt get a good look at the sun...or go see what the moon is....they believe what they are told.

Fine.

This is 2013.

But you can still convince people that an alien warlord 75 million years ago is the reason for human emotional problems. Even though the guy claiming it...is a science fiction writer out to make money.

You believe there is a god? Fine. I dont know how the universe came to be. The big bang doesnt account for the matter that banged and there is no logical way to explain it through science.

But if you believe that books written(or at least heavily edited for political reasons in the case of the bible) by man explain this inconceivably powerful beings desires or paints an accurate history of our planet...you...are probably a ****ing idiot. Or choose to believe the basics and disregard the specifics(which are almost always absurd).

Or in the case of many just have it so drilled into you that you accept it without question in cult like fashion.

People are being murdered daily over this nonsense.

And there is no end in sight. Its been spread for thousands of years by murderers using god to justify conquest of "savages" and its reached every corner of the globe.

I bet in another thousand years scientology will have 20 million members or more and the specifics of its founding will be so long ago people wont even remember to make fun of it. It will be...insensitive.

Never mind that people with common sense know its bullshit.

Its their protected right to believe it...and force it onto their children so it spreads.

Thats what most of this is at this point.

Scientology 2 thousand years from now when there are endless generations pounding it into the heads of children until the people against it are made out to be the idiots.

If Scientology came out 3 thousand years ago I bet a billion people are laughing at people who dont believe in it. That or having us killed as has so often been the way of the religious when faced with people who disagree.

Thats the world we have.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 05-25-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:08 PM   #29
Rasheed1
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

My sister and my mom are two of the people I respect most living in this world right now... They are brilliant women..

but it always amazes me when they switch over to religious talk. "God did this", and "God did that"... "leave it in God's hands".. It is so weird to see smart people turn on a dime and talk like that. People who are very rational thinking and methodical people turn on a dime and believe this stuff? it boggles my mind everytime I hear it.

I have had these conversations with them, but I just hold my tongue most of the time, just so I dont feel like Im beating up on them..

"I prayed, and God got me that promotion"..

No... YOU got you that promotion
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:19 PM   #30
The Real JW
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Default Re: Atheists and theists - Do good: we will meet one another - says the Pope.

I want to know, once and for all, which sports teams God is truly a fan of. He can't be responsible for all these different teams winning championships. He's no bandwagoner.
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