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Old 06-22-2013, 08:10 PM   #31
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Oden 50
LEBRON JAMES IS NOT AS GD AS WILT
Neither is Jordan.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve
Maybe, but here's the thing, players like Tommy Heinsohn, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, and Bailey Howell are legit Hall of Famers no matter where they would have played (and Russell played with no fewer than 3 of them). This is before you count great role players like KC Jones, Tom Sanders, Willie Naulis, Larry Siegfried, and Don Nelson. There's a reason those Celtic teams were great and that's because they had great players (outside of Russell) and not only that, but there was a level of consistency in terms of turnover, which allowed a great collection of talent to get even better through familiarity.

I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

He has a good case for GOAT already, despending of course on what you ask for. After all, Jordan himself had been called widely the GOAT by the time he had won his 2nd title and he was probably already the most popular choice when he got his 3rd. I definitely don't think Jordan was more accomplished than Wilt back then (especially after only 2 rings) and that whoever wasn't hypocritical enough should have Wilt as a top GOAT candidate at least up to then - and I don't see why not up to now.

I don't know how many championships Wilt would have won for the Celtics. More than 2 is a safe bet. Maybe not as many as Russell, since Russell was the ultimate chamistry player, but, you know what, it wouldn't matter, because Russell wouldn't have won anywhere near 11 either and the "11" standard wouldn't even exist. Even if Russell had played for another quality franchise like the Hawks, even if he still held a title advantage, say, 7 vs 5, things would be seen in a different light. If Wilt held a title advantage, even the most minimum one, I don't think Russell would have any serious case over him. If he held an advantage anywhere close to 11-2 (which wouldn't be impossible if Russell played for a crappy team and Wilt managed to play alongside a peak Havlicek and a quickly emerging Jo Jo White in the early 70's), well, there wouldn't be much left to be said.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges
...give context for every one of these players - and how long they played with Wilt and how old/young/healthy they were at the times, and give the same context for Russell's HOF teammates and the scale tips in Russell's favor
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Who says hes not
ESPN
And stars who played in the 80s and 90s with Jordan

Wilt is GOAT depending on person

the untouchable 4 who can be called GOAT

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
...give context for every one of these players - and how long they played with Wilt and how old/young/healthy they were at the times, and give the same context for Russell's HOF teammates and the scale tips in Russell's favor

Read this again;

Quote:
Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

And it wasn't a big research between Wilt's teammates compared to Russell's but it completely destroys the nonsense Jlauber has been spamming about a la Wilt's "horrible" teammates and how they destroyed his legacy. Plenty of the mentioned players played with Wilt during their primes.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

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Originally Posted by livinglegend
He would probably have more than 10 championships as the man. He had some of the best stats in the history of the game.

Yeah but legend had it that Russel's defense and team-play was a major factor in the Celtics dynamic. Wilt was more of the one-man force. But you never know...
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:20 PM   #38
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges

Although you're leaving out the fact that he never played with more than two of these players at a time (the Hall of Famers that is) and of the All-Stars you listed, only Rodgers, Jackson, and Costello played with him for more than one full season and only Rodgers and Jackson could be said to have played with him in their prime's. Chamberlain's teams were talented and good, but it's not accurate to say and they even approached the level of talent and depth the Celtics had, especially from '59 to '66.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:57 AM   #39
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

Its All About The Ws: Bill Russell

Wilt Chamberlain Impact
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash31
Who says hes not
ESPN
And stars who played in the 80s and 90s with Jordan

Wilt is GOAT depending on person

the untouchable 4 who can be called GOAT

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan

I actually have Russell as the GOAT. I guess it changes from 1 person to another. It s the media that has created the allusion that Jordan is the ultimate GOAT because it s harder to compare today s players to Wilt and Russell .They are not many video footages of them, also because the game has evolved a lot.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #41
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashty
No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

Its All About The Ws: Bill Russell

Wilt Chamberlain Impact

No one questions Russell's impact, but if anyone is naive enough to believe he was carrying medicore rosters to titles they would be deluding themselves.

Russell came to a Celtic team that had gone 39-33 the year before. Not only that, but in the same draft in which they traded for Russell in his rookie season, they also drafted Tom Heinsohn (who won ROY.) And that team already had Cousy, Ramsey, and Sharman, as well (and Risen, who I will get to in a moment.)

How good was that Celtic team in Russell's rookie season? They went 28-20 with Russell, and 16-8 without him. And one of the key reason was that they already had a HOF center backing him up in Arnie Risen. Now, no one in their right mind would claim that Risen was even close to Russell, but he was a decent serviceable center. And that is important in these discussions on Russell's impact. Why? Because for much of Russell's career, the Celtics didn't bother with a decent backup center. Russell was playing 45-46 mpg in many of those seasons, so it was considered a waste. But, obviously it had an affect when Russell did miss games.

In Russell's second season, he injured his ankle in game three of the Finals. Even with an injured Russell, the Celtics only lost that game 111-108. Russell didn't play in the next two games of those Finals, and Boston won one of them, 109-98, and lost the other by a 102-100 margin. And he only played in the first half of game six, in that half his Celtics trailed by three points. They lost that game six by one point. So clearly, this was a near-championship team without him.

And each season after that the Celtics continued to add pieces to this Dynasty. In Russell's second season, they added Sam Jones. By the 62-63 season, the Celtics were fielding a team of nine HOF players. Granted, not all of them were legitimate HOFers. IMHO, Ramsey, KC Jones, and Satch Sanders were nowhere near HOF-level players. But they were good role players. Ramsey was considered one of the league's best "sixth men" before Havlicek arrived. And both KC Jones and Sanders were considered among the elite defenders in the league in the 60's. In fact, KC Jones' defense complimented the Celtic roster so well, that Cousy's retirement had little effect.

And Auerbach was a genius at finding replacements, too. How about snatching Clyde Lovellette before the start of the 62-63 season? Lovellette was a HOF player, and just the year before Boston landed him, he had averaged 21 ppg and 9 rpg, and on .471 shooting (in a league that shot .426 overall.) He was Boston's ninth best player in that 62-63 season.

And people forget that Russell basically had two "cores" in his entire 13 season career. In the first half he had the likes of Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Ramsey, and Sam Jones. And in the second half, he had Havlicek, Bailey Howell (a very good scorer and shooter his entire career), Sam Jones, Sanders, and KC Jones.

And once again, Auerbach was always adding solid bench players to each roster. Players like Risen, Ramsey, Siegfried, Nelson, Embry, and even Havlicek for a number of seasons.

And think about this. Players like Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam Jones, Howell, and Havlicek all had multiple 20+ ppg scoring seasons in their careers. Some before Russell, and some afterwards. Sam Jones even had regular seasons of 26 ppg, and playoffs of 29 ppg. And how about Havlicek, who would have seasons as high as 28 and 29 ppg after Russell retired? So, as you can see, Russell always had offensive firepower, and lots of it, when he played.

In Russell's last season, the Celtics "only" went 48-34. Why? Because players like Russell, himself, and Sam Jones were nearing the end. Russell missed five games, and Sam jones missed 12. But take a look at that overall roster: Havlicek (nearing his prime...and having a great post-season), Howell (a 20 ppg scorer), Sam Jones who still scored 16 ppg, Siegfried off the bench with 14 ppg, and both Sanders and Nelson with 11 ppg. An they also had Em Bryant,w ho had a great Finals, and budding rookie Don Chaney. Overall, this was a very deep team, and most all of them played reasonably well in the post-season.

Now, the Russell supporters will be quick to point out that Boston crashed after he retired (falling to a 34-48 record.) But, Russell wasn't their only loss. Sam Jones hung it up after that season, as well. Furthermore, the Celtics had no idea that Russell was going to retire, and Auerbach drafted Jo Jo White (who would go to have a fine career) instead of a center. So, in the year after Russell's retirement, Boston was going with journeyman backup Henry Finkel as their starter.

However, the very next season they drafted Dave Cowens, and the result was an immediate improvement to 44-38. In 71-72 they went 56-26. In 72-73 they set a team record of 68-14, which still stands today. And then they would go on to win two titles in '74 and '76.

Hopefully that puts a little bit better perspective on just how impressive Russell's supporting casts, as well as Auerbach's brilliance played in Russell's success.

Next, Wilt's impact.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #42
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

LAZERUSS - A little OT, but can you talk a bit about the 63-64 SFW season? As I said above, it's one of the best defensive seasons in league history (#14 in my files). I've gathered what I could from SI, a few biographies, stats, and articles from other cities (don't have access to SF Chronicle papers at the moment), but I still don't feel I have enough information. Not to hyperbolize, but I think Wilt was playing close to the same level as he did during his MVP threepeat seasons. Incredible year it seems.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

The Celtics would have won less championships if Wilt replaced Russell
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #44
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashty
No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

Its All About The Ws: Bill Russell

Wilt Chamberlain Impact

The above "article" is completely laughable. First of all, it doesn't even really dimininsh Wilt's impact. But since it was an obvious attempt at doing so, let's take a closer look at Wilt's true impact, shall we?

Chamberlain was actually drafted while still in High School. The NBA had a territorial draft at the time, and Philadelphia was able to "draft" him. BTW, and as a sidenote, Red Auerbach did everything in his power to try and persuade Chamberlain to attend a school closer to Boston, so that he could have landed Wilt.

By the time rookie Wilt arrived in Philly, the Warriors were a crumbling team. They had just finished in last place, and were going downhill fast. They did have HOFer Paul Arizin, who was a truly outsanding scorer, as well as "HOFer" Tom Gola, and PG Guy Rodgers. But even with those three, they could only go 32-40 the year before Chamberlain arrived.

Wilt's impact was immediate. He took the Warriors to a 49-26 record, which was a franchise best at the time. He then single-handedly acrried them past a very good Syracuse team in the playoffs (including a 53-22 game three in a best-of-three series.) And, in the EDF's and against the HOF-laden Celtics, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg, in a six game series. In that series, he badly injured his hand in game two, and was worthless in game three (the only time in his post-season career in which Russell badly outplayed him...and the result was a 120-90 loss.) He was somewhat better in game four, but they still lost. In game five he was back to his dominating self, and the result was a 50-35 game against Russell, and a 128-107 rout of the Celtics. Both he and Russell played brilliantly in game six, but Boston was able to eke out a 119-117 win. One can only wonder how that seris might have gone had Wilt not injured his hand.

Chamberlain would be the only Warrior to play well in the '61 playoffs. His two HOF teammates, Arizin and Gola, shot .325 and .206 respectively, and the result was a close, but sweeping series loss to Syracuse.

And while Auerbach was continuing to upgrade the Boston franchise, the Warriors continued to decline. They basically put all their eggs in the Wilt-basket, and believed that he could single-handedly deliver a title. Even his coach, Frank McGuire, was convined of it. Before the 61-62 season, he came to Chamberlain and told him that he wanted Chamberlain to carry the offense. He also explained that to Wilt's teammates. So, while many mistakeningly believe that Wilt was a "selfish ballhog" in that 61-62 season, they fail to realize that it was Wilt's coach who was behind it. Not only that, but even Al Attles would comment years later, that Wilt's teammates were solidly behind Wilt that season. They all knew that he was their only hope.

And amazingly, Wilt carried that team, the core of which had been a last place roster three years before, to a 49-31 record. And in the first round of the playoffs, Chamberlain single-handedly carried them past Syracuse, which included a game five, in a best-of-five series, of 56 points and 35 rebounds.

In the 61-62 EDF's, Chamberlain put up a 34-26 series, and with his teammates badly outgunned by a HOF-laden Celtic roster, he somehow got them to a game seven, two-point loss. BTW, in that postseason, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .354 (Arizin was at .375, and Gola shot .271.) Just how the hell was he able to carry that cast of clowns, who had played even worse in the post-season, to a game seven, two point loss against a loaded 60-20 Celtic team?

Arizin retired after that season, and Gola basically stayed behind, while the Warrior franchise moved to San Francisco before the 62-63 season. That team had proactically no talent, and in fact, would field 15 different players, several of whom were in the NBA for a very brief time.

True, the Warriors fell to 31-49. But one could hardly blame Wilt. He averaged 47.6 mpg, and led the NBA in fifteen of their 22 statiscal categories. And for those that put value in "Win Shares", Chamberlain had a 20.9 mark...or in other words, he was single-handedly responsible for about 70% of his team's wins. He also put up a PER mark of 31.8, which is still an NBA record.

And even that 31-49 record was deceptive. The Warriors had a -2.1 ppg differential, and lost 35 games by single digits. They went 1-8 against Boston (with Wilt outscoring Russell, per game, by a 38 ppg to 14 ppg margin.) But they were in nearly all of those games.

How bad was that team? Their new coach coming into the 63-64 season, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, with the veterans, sans Wilt, playing against rookies and cast-offs, and to his shock, the scrubs beat the veterans. The veteran players had become so dependant on Wilt, that he realized that many of them had forgotten how to play the game.

Chamberlain was somehow able to take that crappy roster to a 48-32 record. And in the WDF's, he averaged 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .559, in taking them past a loaded Hawks' team that was considerably better, players 2-6, than what Chamberlain had. And while the Celtics beat the Warriors in the Finals, 4-1, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. And, overall, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 29-11; outrebounded Russell, per game, 28-25; and outshot Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

Continued...
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #45
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Default Re: If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
LAZERUSS - A little OT, but can you talk a bit about the 63-64 SFW season? As I said above, it's one of the best defensive seasons in league history (#14 in my files). I've gathered what I could from SI, a few biographies, stats, and articles from other cities (don't have access to SF Chronicle papers at the moment), but I still don't feel I have enough information. Not to hyperbolize, but I think Wilt was playing close to the same level as he did during his MVP threepeat seasons. Incredible year it seems.

Since I was going to cover this, your post came at a good time.

As I noted above, the 63-64 Warriors were not a very good team. They were basically the same roster that had gone 31-49 the year before. True, they added rookie Nate Thurmond, but he was a center playing out of position at the forward slot. Furthermore, he only played part-time, and only shot .395 from the field.

Their second best player was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13.5 ppg, 7.7 rpg, and shot .458 from the field. Aside from Al Attles, who seldom shot but shot .452, and backup Kenny Sears, who shot .442, they did not have one single player shooting better than Nate's .395. Guy Rodgers, who was arguably the worst shooter in NBA history, shot .365. Their other starter, Wayne Hightwoer shot .385, and their first backup Gary Phillips shot .370.

Hannum did get the team to play better defense, and articles at the time mention that Wilt's defense had become better as well. His DWin Shares was at 10.6, which is the highest non-Russell season in NBA history.

Again, somehow Wilt willed that team to a 48-32 record. Keep that record in mind. And how about his entire post-season, covering 12 games. In a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg and on .420 shooting, Chamberlain averaged 34.7 on .543 shooting (as well as 25.2 rpg.)

Wilt had a health scare early in the 64-65 season, and even the Warrior team doctors feared that he was a walking time-bomb. With Wilt at nowhere near 100% at the time, and the Warrior roster playing back to '63 levels, SF plunged to a horrible record (going 10-27 even with Wilt.)

Fearing the worst, they shipped Wilt off to Philly at mid-season, for three players, including Paul Neumann. And while they had gone 10-27 with Chamberlain, they would go 7-36 without him.

This is where we see Wilt's true impact at it's peak.

Chamberlain came to a stumbling Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. And once again, they had to shell out three players and a boatload of cash to acquire Chamberlain.

With Wilt, the Sixers went 21-20, and finished the campaign at 40-40. They then trounced the 48-32 Royals in the first round of the playoffs. And, in the EDF's, and playing against a Celtic team that had gone 62-18, and was at it's zenith, Chamberlain put up a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, .555 FG% series, including a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds, in a 110-109 loss. Once again, Chamberlain was nearly sigle-handedly carrying a team past the greatest dynasty in professional team sports history.

Back to the Warriors. They would go 17-63 in that 64-65 season, which enabled them to draft Rick Barry...who would go on to have a HOF career. The Wilt trade also allowed them to move Thurmond to his natural center position. And with Meschery as their third best player, the 65-66 Warriors could still only go 35-45. So, the Warriors basicaly replaced Chamberlain with both Barry and Thurmond, and they could still only go 35-45.

By the 66-67 season, the Warriors added Jeff Mullins (an outstanding scorer in his career), Clyde Lee (probably the premier rebounding PF in his career), and Fred Hetzel (who would average 21 ppg his very next season) to go along with Thurmond, Barry, Neumann, and Meschery.

Think about this: With Barry averaging 35.6 ppg, and Thurmond having the finest season of his career (he would finish #2 in the MVP voting behind Wilt), and with the rest of those players, the Warriors could only go 44-37. Hell, Meschery averaged 11 ppg as their seventh best player. When he was Wilt's second best player, he averaged 13, and yet Chamberlain still led that 63-64 team to a 48-32 record...which was better than what the loaded 66-67 Warriors could achieve without him.

Continued...
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