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Old 07-08-2013, 10:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

can someone give me a run down in laymans terms of what occurred and is happening now in egypt?
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfreak
LJJ,

This is absolutely inaccurate on every point.

Since June 30th, millions of people went into the street to overthrow Morsi. That's four days before it went to CNN.

It was even reported on LA times that the military was giving Morsi "24 hours to give into the people's demands".

Democratically elected? Ask 10.5 million of the citizens who voted mubarak just why they voted Morsi. You will find out that brotherhood muslims were out there bribing citizens with oil and rice, and other incentives. Not to mention that the only party that was running against the brotherhood, was a former member of Mubarak's regime. There were at least 12 other people running for president, that were quickly eliminated from the campaign by the brotherhood. 75%??? That number was not reported even in Egypt. A total of around 22 million voted (in a country of 90 million). The numbers showed a difference of less than a few thousand between the two parties.


I said parliamentary election. Morsi sneaked in during the presidential election. The parliamentary election was held afterwards and is honestly a bit more substantively political. The presidential election is about which face is going to be on top, the parliamentary election is about what laws are going to be put in place and shows more about the true political nature of the voters. 75% of the voters voted for Islamists in that election. There were plenty of liberal or secular parties to choose from, even plenty unaffiliated with Mubarak. It was the perfect opportunity for Egyptians to show that Morsi didn't really have the people's mandate. Instead they voted in massive support of Morsi


Quote:
How many innocent minorities must be thrown in jail? How many churches are going to be destroyed? How many young adolescents, are going to be brutally beaten to their death because of what religion they are?

What in God's name is it going to take for people to understand that extremism is in FACT terrorism? How can the U.S. be putting these type of people in power, letting them do their thing, and then sleep at night comfortably with their families while the rest of the world is turning to garbage?

This is all pandering to western standards. I'm not a supporter of Morsi or Islam. I'm just saying that what happened in Egypt under Morsi is democracy.

Quote:
This is simply not politics anymore. This is a matter of right and wrong. There is only one right answer here. The answer, no matter who runs the country, is that people need to live under a roof, make a living, and practice their religions peacefully.

In a country that has 10 million Coptic Christians, and less than half a million brotherhood muslims, and the rest being moderate muslims who want a legitimate democracy as much as any one else would, you have the capacity to call this a "minority opinion"?

Copts are around 15% of the population and are heavily discriminated against in Egypt and under severe threat of religious persecution regardless of what government is in place. How are they anything but a minority?

This post is exactly what I'm talking about. When the Egyptian people were asked what laws they wanted, 75% voted for a Sharia based constitution. The military, who are very much a remnant of the old Mubarak regime, decided they weren't happy with the changes Morsi was making to their power and influence. They saw an opportunity to use the protest of the young liberal crowd in Cairo to restore their power with a coup, and they did. Opinion has nothing to with it.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
I said parliamentary election. Morsi sneaked in during the presidential election. The parliamentary election was held afterwards and is honestly a bit more substantively political. The presidential election is about which face is going to be on top, the parliamentary election is about what laws are going to be put in place and shows more about the true political nature of the voters. 75% of the voters voted for Islamists in that election. There were plenty of liberal or secular parties to choose from, even plenty unaffiliated with Mubarak. It was the perfect opportunity for Egyptians to show that Morsi didn't really have the people's mandate. Instead they voted in massive support of Morsi




This is all pandering to western standards. I'm not a supporter of Morsi or Islam. I'm just saying that what happened in Egypt under Morsi is democracy.



Copts are around 15% of the population and are heavily discriminated against in Egypt and under severe threat of religious persecution regardless of what government is in place. How are they anything but a minority?

This post is exactly what I'm talking about. When the Egyptian people were asked what laws they wanted, 75% voted for a Sharia based constitution. The military, who are very much a remnant of the old Mubarak regime, decided they weren't happy with the changes Morsi was making to their power and influence. They saw an opportunity to use the protest of the young liberal crowd in Cairo to restore their power with a coup, and they did. Opinion has nothing to with it.

I am beginning to see what the issue is here. You're saying that the only people who didn't want Morsi were Copts. But the truth is, most of the moderate Muslims do not want him either.

Shortly after the military came in and removed Morsi, all the other leaders of different groups (the head Muslim Sheikh, Pope Tawadros II, and other members of the other groups) came together and praised the Egyptian people, the army, and the police for all of their roles in overthrowing Morsi.

You've mentioned the 75% voting before. I am not doubting the facts you learned, I am doubting that this number is true to even begin with and was a false report. twenty two million voted, and the difference was something like 300,000. People only voted because the other competing regime was Mubarak basically.

Remember when people were sick of the republican party after Bush, and just kept voting democratic? Its the same thing. Most people in America were/are just fed up with republicans.

Anyways from what I am hearing, America is still going to send foreign aid to Adly Mansour, the newly appointed interim president. Hopefully this is some kind of indication that this was definitely a majority movement in Egypt.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:29 PM   #19
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjizzle
can someone give me a run down in laymans terms of what occurred and is happening now in egypt?

A while back the Egyptian people rose up and overthrew the autocratic government and the dictator Hosni Mubarak. They held elections where this new guy, Morsi, was elected. Many people contend he wasn't truly the majority favorite, that the only reason he was elected was because the Muslim Brotherhod (essentially his political party) got their shit together before anybody else could organize. It became apparent pretty quick that Morsi/Muslim Brotherhood were Islamists and now the Egyptian army has thrown his ass out too. Now they are getting ready to hold new elections.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
The protests against Morsi are a minority opinion.

Like it or not, Morsi was democratically elected. In the following parliamentary elections the Egyptian people overwhelmingly voted for a fundamental Islamist agenda with the Muslim Brotherhood party and other Islamists parties receiving roughly 75% of the popular vote.

Outsiders want to believe that the reason why the Egyptian revolution took place and the reason Morsi was ousted just now is because the majority of the Egyptian population want a moderate, secular democracy promoting individual freedom and western values.....

Well 22 million people signed 'anti-Morsi' petitions demanding that he step down & he only got 10 or 11 million of the popular vote initially . 30 million people or so took to the streets(some defending him) demanding his resignation.


Not disputing he was democratically elected ,but the military saw a powder keg & wanted to de-fuse it a bit.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmulls
A while back the Egyptian people rose up and overthrew the autocratic government and the dictator Hosni Mubarak. They held elections where this new guy, Morsi, was elected. Many people contend he wasn't truly the majority favorite, that the only reason he was elected was because the Muslim Brotherhod (essentially his political party) got their shit together before anybody else could organize. It became apparent pretty quick that Morsi/Muslim Brotherhood were Islamists and now the Egyptian army has thrown his ass out too. Now they are getting ready to hold new elections.

sweet, thanks.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
The parliamentary election was held afterwards and is honestly a bit more substantively political. The presidential election is about which face is going to be on top, the parliamentary election is about what laws are going to be put in place and shows more about the true political nature of the voters.
parliamentary elections were at the end of 2011, presidential elections were a few months into 2012... no?

as for substance, that's an oversimplification. the presidency may have more of a face but that doesn't mean the party in executive office doesn't hold major power.

furthermore its pretty questionable that the parliamentary elections were substantive on the national scene at all. just a thesis i've come across, of you're interested, the legacy of the mubarak years are a sorta random collection of influential families and elites with whom he build alliances to enforce his will and maintain stability. just what you get with unprincipled military dictatorships. the fact mubarak got tossed doesn't mean his whole establishmenti was thrown out with him. those powerful elites retained substantial control of their areas, and the distribution of goods and services that people are currently desperate for go along with it.

the point is that parliamentary elections almost inevitably boil down to issues of patronage, whats my vote gonna get me and my family in the short term, etc. especially in a brand new democratic system that's relied on a brutal top-down hierarchy for as long as it has. sure party platforms have all sorts of fancy nationalist / reformist rhetoric but from what i understand, that wasn't so much the nature of the vote when it occurred, or the campaigns that were run in the months leading up.

flies in the face of what you're saying here





still tho, lakerfreak i thin you're being shortsighted. especially with regard to that last comment... america does not and has never based its foreign aid on democratic legitimacy. in fact the correlation is quite the opposite.

this is also a weird quote
Quote:
People only voted because the other competing regime was Mubarak basically.
that competing regime, while not strictly made up of ex-mubarak loyalists, had its fair share. furthermore, the history of SCAF, even just its recent history from its "Constitutional Declaration" (an attempt to remove itself from parliamentary oversight) to its attempt at dissolving parliament because it happened to dislike the final tally.... this is NOT an organization that respects democratic principles. the council, which hasn't changed for years its just been shuffled around, has proven that time and time again it will jump at any opportunity to expand its own influence. it piggybacked off popular support in 2011 successfully and now its doing it again.


the key point here is that new democracies take a while before minorities finally earn representation. take your own country. disenfranchised women and blacks is the obvious one. but even legislatively, jews and catholics and italians and plenty of other minorities in the melting pot were treated like total shit for well over a century. it took persistent adherence to democratic values and a long struggle for those groups to reach the political arena and make their voices heard.

in egypt it appears largely the same. for a variety of factors some relevant some not, a party with a religious agenda took office. now it's implementing a program that doesn't vibe with a full majority of egyptians.... who were right to take to the street. but there's a lesser of two evils at play here, and the greater evil is a continuation of egypt's entire modern history, coup after coup after coup that prevents a democratic consciousness (and the pluralism that typically goes with it) from setting in.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Well 22 million people signed 'anti-Morsi' petitions demanding that he step down
i'd be very suspicious of any petition that managed to get 22 million signatures on it. not that its a total fraud but thats the sort of fact that gets bandied about as a conversation stopper without any real relevant facts/details accompanying it
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
i'd be very suspicious of any petition that managed to get 22 million signatures on it. not that its a total fraud but thats the sort of fact that gets bandied about as a conversation stopper without any real relevant facts/details accompanying it


Point well taken & foolish of me to repeat it. And not that it matters in a democracy he didn't have a huge mandate with only 50% voter turnout

Kind of naive for one to believe random petition numbers because no one can verify that. Hard enough to verify elections in some countries.


But the protest are thought to be larger than the Mubarak ones.

It does seem that Morsi, the Public & the military are a bit confused about how a Democracy works.

Looks like Egyptians have learned that the way to get something done is to take their frustration to the streets instead of the polling booth.


On the PLUS side they can actually protest ,so far, without being slaughtered like in most other Middle East countries.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
On the PLUS side they can actually protest ,so far, without being slaughtered like in most other Middle East countries.
i wouldn't go that far. just a few days ago 54 people were killed, morsi supporters according to every source. any time 54 people die in canada or the united states or france or wherever, it's in the news for months.

Quote:
It does seem that Morsi, the Public & the military are a bit confused about how a Democracy works.
it's tricky tho right? above i mentioned the long and treacherous path america took to recognizing minorities and "understanding" democracy. egypt can move in that direction but they'll have to see successive elections without an intermittent/intervening coup first.

it's definitely complicated. but i stand by my conclusion that there are two evils here, and the lesser of them is most certainly another political upheaval, another usurpation of power by an illegitimate and most likely nefarious organization. you compare the social impact -- like on the ground, there were 54 families and hundreds of loved ones who lost a family member and will grieve for years -- against a religious intrusion on civil rights? it isn't even remotely a contest, it's awful what's gone on there recently and it's unlikely to stop. any time a very well organized machine like the brotherhood is criminalized, bloodshed follows in horrific doses.

of course the counter to that is had army forces not stepped in, the morsi crackdown on protesters would have been just as violent... perhaps more so. i tend to disagree but that's a hypothetical worth thinking about. who the fk knows really.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
i wouldn't go that far. just a few days ago 54 people were killed, morsi supporters according to every source. any time 54 people die in canada or the united states or france or wherever, it's in the news for months.


it's tricky tho right? above i mentioned the long and treacherous path america took to recognizing minorities and "understanding" democracy. egypt can move in that direction but they'll have to see successive elections without an intermittent/intervening coup first.

it's definitely complicated. but i stand by my conclusion that there are two evils here, and the lesser of them is most certainly another political upheaval, another usurpation of power by an illegitimate and most likely nefarious organization. you compare the social impact -- like on the ground, there were 54 families and hundreds of loved ones who lost a family member and will grieve for years -- against a religious intrusion on civil rights? it isn't even remotely a contest, it's awful what's gone on there recently and it's unlikely to stop. any time a very well organized machine like the brotherhood is criminalized, bloodshed follows in horrific doses.

of course the counter to that is had army forces not stepped in, the morsi crackdown on protesters would have been just as violent... perhaps more so. i tend to disagree but that's a hypothetical worth thinking about. who the fk knows really.

Absolutely not dismissing the deaths in Egypt this past week or so, but just pointing out that MILLIONS would never be allowed to take to the streets in other countries without it denigrating to a more brutal/complete crack down (Iran)or Civil War(Syria). Dozens of deaths isn't minor ,but considering tens of millions have taken to the streets across the country in a repressive nation is a little reassuring/positive. A little.

Egypt is certainly a philosophical dilemma that we struggle with in the West & it's evident in your post

If one believes in democracy we should support Morsi? But if we are against religious repression/Islamist we should embrace the upheaval?


Or are we too focused on imagining democracy in Egypt as we see it/wish it to be ?
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

the comparative angle seems like a red herring to me. each country/region is different and what's "allowed" differs between them. i don't think the fact that genocide never occurred offers any insight whatsoever to the current situation there. it's good, but its irrelevant. it's almost, just not quite, akin to comparing across eras. useless for the most part.

most importantly, the principle has to take second place to the facts on the ground. we believe in democracy because we don't want people to suffer. we believe in secular governing because we don't want people to suffer. it all boils down to the same point..... so trying to figure out the right course of action for egyptians ("where you stand") has to bear first and foremost on the facts of their particular situation. and in their situation, as i've said, i think supporting "democracy" is the best option for them and internationally, for us. perpetuating the military option of intervention into civil governing is more problematic in the long run.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:52 AM   #28
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs

in each instance, the national leader was elected on a religious platform relying predominantly on a very well organized fundamentalist base and a completely fragmented secular opposition.

So it's like an extreme version of Republicans vs Democrats here in the US.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:58 AM   #29
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfreak
The only disagreement is what this was called and I do not believe it was a coup because it was an ouster of the president at the request of the people, who are unarmed, and going against an armed and a dangerous minority. The army doesn't step in, and watch Egypt turn into Syria quickly.


It really doesn't matter if the people were pissed and wanted him out.

Its still a military coup.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: Egypt: Revolution 2.0 is NOT a coup

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
, as i've said, i think supporting "democracy" is the best option for them and internationally, for us. perpetuating the military option of intervention into civil governing is more problematic in the long run.


And given the US history of the shameful act of undermining and or going as far as assisting in the assassination of democratically elected officials in South America , Africa & the Middle East .........




So you think the US should call it a Coup(which what it was) & revoke military aid?
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