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Old 07-10-2013, 10:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentatm
yep. you dont know what a liberal is.

please turn off FoxNews and stop going to sites like Breitbart

Please elaborate for us all then

Their means of gun control is increasing cost of ownership, this in essence means banning or disabling access to firearms for those who are in low wealth high crime communities...
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

not for taking rights away once they are established but you don't need the 2nd amendment to own a gun or to protect your self. I think it can also be said the emphasis on the 2nd amendment does play just as much of a negative role in the gun culture as it does for self defense.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

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Originally Posted by StocktonFan
...Do a little research yourself, simply google 'liberal stance on gun control' and maybe you will get an understanding of their stance - completely anti-gun, government loathing yet blaming blood suckers is what they are. People who cannot provide for themselves and want a government bailout. Oh Obama, help me, i need this, this and that. I can't afford it but maybe you can pull some more money out of that 16T debt to cover my lazy food stamp, disability claiming ass.
"what is a cartoonland episode. how many points did i get, trabek?"
- sean connery


seriously... the 2nd amendment is almost completely irrelevant to anything at this point. at the time it was passed, guns were effectively different items. that is, the invention of pin-firing multiple round guns in the 1800's instantly turned the 2nd in to yet another obsolete law which meant one thing on paper and a completely different thing in reality.

i think a fairly brief study of the framers of the constitution and the founders of this country gives the clear impression that those folks would consider the current situation borderline insane and not remotely what they ever intended.

when that amendment was passed, guns were clumsy, extremely slow-loading, and unreliable. their main use was in hunting and military operations. from my impression of history, very little citizen-on-citizen violence took place with guns as the main weapon involved.

i don't think there's a chance in hell that the founders intended a healthy society of people walking around with what are essentially high-tech military weapons... neither criminals at large nor homeowners seeking to protect themselves.

so in my mind it all boils down to what is practical here and now, not twisting obsolete laws to one's personal advantage. the basic problem as i see it is that guns are completely out of control in this country, but where do you even begin to try to dial it all back? gun ownership (leading to powerful lobbying) is just too ingrained in the psyche of the country to change very easily, or at all. so everyone's left to do what lifeforms always do in these situations, which is to take part in an arms race. property owners versus burglars and holdup men, gang and mob warfare, people getting crazy and deciding to act out in new and interesting ways... etc etc.

so how do you disentangle modern life from itself? i'm not sure that you can in the modern case of gun rights in the USA.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
"what is a cartoonland episode. how many points did i get, trabek?"
- sean connery


seriously... the 2nd amendment is almost completely irrelevant to anything at this point. at the time it was passed, guns were effectively different items. that is, the invention of pin-firing multiple round guns in the 1800's instantly turned the 2nd in to yet another obsolete law which meant one thing on paper and a completely different thing in reality.

i think a fairly brief study of the framers of the constitution and the founders of this country gives the clear impression that those folks would consider the current situation borderline insane and not remotely what they ever intended.

when that amendment was passed, guns were clumsy, extremely slow-loading, and unreliable. their main use was in hunting and military operations. from my impression of history, very little citizen-on-citizen violence took place with guns as the main weapon involved.

i don't think there's a chance in hell that the founders intended a healthy society of people walking around with what are essentially high-tech military weapons... neither criminals at large nor homeowners seeking to protect themselves.

so in my mind it all boils down to what is practical here and now, not twisting obsolete laws to one's personal advantage. the basic problem as i see it is that guns are completely out of control in this country, but where do you even begin to try to dial it all back? gun ownership (leading to powerful lobbying) is just too ingrained in the psyche of the country to change very easily, or at all. so everyone's left to do what lifeforms always do in these situations, which is to take part in an arms race. property owners versus burglars and holdup men, gang and mob warfare, people getting crazy and deciding to act out in new and interesting ways... etc etc.

so how do you disentangle modern life from itself? i'm not sure that you can in the modern case of gun rights in the USA.

the rabid debate on "gun control" is a bit baffling. if you look at the second amendment it doesnt contain the word gun or firearm anywhere. the text specifically says it guarantees the right to a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, and the right of people to keep and "bear arms".

I may be wrong but I was under the assumption that the second amendment was designed to help protect americans from tyranny. Back in 1776, bearing arms meant you had a muzzle loading musket that took half an hour to reload, but you could still win a war if you had enough dudes holding those things. These days pretty much anyone can buy a crazy gun at a gun show for like $500, but it doesnt really matter because modern tyranny has things like predator drones and they wont be stopped by a murican with an assault rifle.

my modern interpretation of the second amendment is that any citizen should be allowed to own a fully stocked aircraft carrier or fleet of tanks. A handgun or assault rifle is ultimately not going to do very much to help a well organized militia protect the security of the free state in 2013.

Last edited by Nanners : 07-11-2013 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
These days pretty much anyone can buy a crazy gun at a gun show for like $500, but it doesnt really matter because modern tyranny has things like predator drones and they wont be stopped by a murican with an assault rifle.

I've thought about that a lot. The first thing is, I don't think it matters that a revolution would fail, that doesn't change the principle. But also, I don't think it would necessarily fail. Because you're talking about a situation where American soldiers would have to kill American citizens- and not always with a drone. There would be soldiers on the ground too. And if the opposing citizens are firing back at them with assault rifles, it becomes dangerous. And I think that could weaken the will of the soldiers, who may be morally conflicted to begin with.

It wouldn't be easy for them to kill American citizens morally.. but with the added threat of being killed by them.. I think it could have the effect of just awakening their conscience.

In ANY EVENT, let's hope that never happens in our life time and we can find answers peacefully

Last edited by joe : 07-11-2013 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

@nanners,
right right, yea... yup.

really, i have a bad habit of giving away starting points to other debaters too easily. it feels like a courtesy to their reasoning ability, but is probably just laziness on my part. i had forgotten about the militia angle, and just assumed for the sake of the OP that the 2nd amendment neatly covered all the gun enthusiasts' needs.

and i just read this in the WP summary of the 2nd:
Quote:
In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment "codified a pre-existing right" and that it "protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home" but also stated that "the right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose".

They also clarified that many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court are consistent with the Second Amendment.
but... just as recently as 2008???
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe

It wouldn't be easy for them to kill American citizens morally.. but with the added threat of being killed by them.. I think it could have the effect of just awakening their conscience.

the average murican with his assault rifle stands absolutely no chance against a well trained and well financed military force.

my point was that while you can buy a lot of things at a gun show, you cant buy anything that will win a modern war. a gun is a great tool when you need to stop your crackhead neighbor from stealing your vcr, but it wont stop a tank.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
@nanners,
right right, yea... yup.

really, i have a bad habit of giving away starting points to other debaters too easily. it feels like a courtesy to their reasoning ability, but is probably just laziness on my part. i had forgotten about the militia angle, and just assumed for the sake of the OP that the 2nd amendment neatly covered all the gun enthusiasts' needs.

and i just read this in the WP summary of the 2nd:

but... just as recently as 2008???

im not trying to debate against your points, just saying it doesnt make sense to me that people like OP say things like "liberals oppose the second amendment because they want to control guns" while the second amendment doesnt say anything about guns.

the founding fathers wanted us to "bear arms" so that we could protect our fellow muricans, but today we "bear arms" so that we can protect ourselves from other muricans.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
the average murican with his assault rifle stands absolutely no chance against a well trained and well financed military force.

my point was that while you can buy a lot of things at a gun show, you cant buy anything that will win a modern war. a gun is a great tool when you need to stop your crackhead neighbor from stealing your vcr, but it wont stop a tank.

I'm not saying they stand a chance. I'm saying that the presence of any resistance at all might put the American soldiers in a weird space mentally. It's one thing to round up Americans and arrest them, I think it's another to kill them as they shoot at you. I think the soldiers would eventually ask themselves.. "is this right?"
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I'm not saying they stand a chance. I'm saying that the presence of any resistance at all might put the American soldiers in a weird space mentally. It's one thing to round up Americans and arrest them, I think it's another to kill them as they shoot at you. I think the soldiers would eventually ask themselves.. "is this right?"

I dont disagree with any of your points about the psychology of the military. I dont think many soldiers would go through with orders to slaughter the people they are sworn to protect.

I am just saying that "the resistance" will have as much success throwing stones as they will shooting their assault rifles once the predator drones arrive.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:57 AM   #26
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I'm not saying they stand a chance. I'm saying that the presence of any resistance at all might put the American soldiers in a weird space mentally. It's one thing to round up Americans and arrest them, I think it's another to kill them as they shoot at you. I think the soldiers would eventually ask themselves.. "is this right?"

A tyrannical government doesn't even need soldiers on the ground in modern warfare.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:59 AM   #27
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
I dont disagree with any of your points about the psychology of the military. I dont think many soldiers would go through with orders to slaughter the people they are sworn to protect.

I am just saying that "the resistance" will have as much success throwing stones as they will shooting their assault rifles once the predator drones arrive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM
A tyrannical government doesn't even need soldiers on the ground in modern warfare.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there soldiers on the ground in the Middle East?
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there soldiers on the ground in the Middle East?

a great question for any one of the family members of the hundreds of pakistani people that have been killed in drone attacks during the past few years

Last edited by Nanners : 07-11-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:15 AM   #29
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
im not trying to debate against your points, just saying it doesnt make sense to me that people like OP say things like "liberals oppose the second amendment because they want to control guns" while the second amendment doesnt say anything about guns.

the founding fathers wanted us to "bear arms" so that we could protect our fellow muricans, but today we "bear arms" so that we can protect ourselves from other muricans.
well i was trying to address the OP's points. i thought i was more or less in agreement with you on this issue. not like it matters too much, because debates with friend / foe are worth it to me as long as they're interesting.


anyway, yea... i don't see any point in the FF's supporting any form or concept of intra-nation or state-against-state warfare. but since the US constitution was a primal fire that set the world ablaze so to speak, i would think they were moreso trying to set a model for the world and encourage citizens everywhere to rise up against tyranny.

i see no point in blessing revolution against yourself in terms of guns and all that. either you have confidence in your system or not.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #30
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

Well the constitution at this point is all interpretation. I feel the second amendment stands for allowing self-protection from foreign and domestic threats, including a government that does not truly represent its people. The founding fathers knew the people had to have powering force or else they would have to run from a government such as Britain's. What difference does it make if weapons today are much more advanced? The opposition isn't firing with 18th century weapons, they too are in the same field.

For us to say we don't need forces/firearms etc. for oppression is ignorant. Many countries in today's world has had to use firearms (many of which we've provided actually) to overthrow a government that does not represent them. So i think it's ignorant to think we're the exception.

And don't get me wrong, i'm not saying lets revolt, but i'm just saying the day may come one day where we feel the government is doing more harm than good. When that day comes, it's important to be prepared for what may be necessary.

Last edited by StocktonFan : 07-11-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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