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Old 07-11-2013, 01:05 PM   #31
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

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Originally Posted by StocktonFan
Well the constitution at this point is all interpretation. I feel the second amendment stands for allowing self-protection from foreign and domestic threats, including a government that does not truly represent its people. The founding fathers knew the people had to have powering force or else they would have to run from a government such as Britain's. What difference does it make if weapons today are much more advanced? The opposition isn't firing with 18th century weapons, they too are in the same field.

For us to say we don't need forces/firearms etc. for oppression is ignorant. Many countries in today's world has had to use firearms (many of which we've provided actually) to overthrow a government that does not represent them. So i think it's ignorant to think we're the exception.

And don't get me wrong, i'm not saying lets revolt, but i'm just saying the day may come one day where we feel the government is doing more harm than good. When that day comes, it's important to be prepared for what may be necessary.
To overthrow the US government, gun or no gun makes little to none difference in this day and age. That reasoning is outdated. Perhaps a bigger gun such as rocket launcher or nuclear bomb is more like it. We totally should let the average citizens have these weapons just in case.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

@stocktonfan,
i don't see any real evidence supporting your opinions of what the FF's intended. i think any history scholar would tell you that the constitution was specifically designed to prevent a tyranny from ever occurring in the new nation.

i don't know of any good evidence that supports interpreting the 2nd amendment to mean that whenever leadership arises that is not to one's satisfaction, one has the right to rise up and overthrow it.

no, as long as the constitution is followed, the people get to create the govt they want by electing the representatives they prefer. how much sense does it make to elect your govt under a democratic process and then overthrow it before the next election? the election IS your chance to martial superior numbers to create the ruling govt you want. with no guns required.


now you ask what difference there is between a society armed with today's weapons as compared to a society armed with 18th century weapons...? are you serious? do you realise that with an 18th century gun there was a delay in firing after you pulled the trigger? a good chance the thing wouldn't even fire at all even when correctly loaded? that with primitive or non-existent rifling and a target more than a fairly short distance away, the ball wouldn't even go where you aimed it?

we're talking the difference between slings and power crossbows.


but is your logic really that if both 'sides' within a country have access to the same technology, it's all fair and square? like, okay... when we get to each side having baby nukes will you say it's still a-okay?
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
@stocktonfan,
i don't see any real evidence supporting your opinions of what the FF's intended. i think any history scholar would tell you that the constitution was specifically designed to prevent a tyranny from ever occurring in the new nation.

First, neither i or you know what the FF intended, it's all open for interpretation. I feel the biggest obstacle they had was to make sure the government represented the people, afterall, that's what caused them to flee britain did it not?

Tyranny can occur both foreign or domestic, there is no clear cut source here.


i don't know of any good evidence that supports interpreting the 2nd amendment to mean that whenever leadership arises that is not to one's satisfaction, one has the right to rise up and overthrow it.

First, we're not talking about satisfaction, we're talking about representation. "one" - not that there is a such thing as a single person revolution, will not ever be satisified. But majority representation should be a fair request - and that's what i feel the founding fathers wanted, democracy. I don't think so... stop discrediting the point by singling a single person out. Revolutions happen by a mass. If the mass citizens agree that the government does not represent them, then they have a right to revolt. History has shown throughout the world that existing governments will and have use military firepower to stop such revolts. We've actually helped support rebels by arming them, providing sanctions, no fly zones etc. there is no denial that most revolutions today happen because of a armed militia/group.

no, as long as the constitution is followed, the people get to create the govt they want by electing the representatives they prefer. how much sense does it make to elect your govt under a democratic process and then overthrow it before the next election? the election IS your chance to martial superior numbers to create the ruling govt you want. with no guns required.

Really? Do you still think the government fairly represents the majority of people? I mean the popular vote vs electoral, do you agree with that? What about the government that has been caught violating our privacy? Or the IRS's spending what, 6M in food the last year? How about the butterfly ballot? Or the other thread showing illegal arrest in front of a US judge... Point is, i don't feel the government represents us... maybe not to the point of revolt being necessary... but there is no way i'm saying it cannot happen in our lifetime or our grandchildrens.


now you ask what difference there is between a society armed with today's weapons as compared to a society armed with 18th century weapons...? are you serious? do you realise that with an 18th century gun there was a delay in firing after you pulled the trigger? a good chance the thing wouldn't even fire at all even when correctly loaded? that with primitive or non-existent rifling and a target more than a fairly short distance away, the ball wouldn't even go where you aimed it?

WTF are you talking about, i'm saying the 'enemy' now is armed with just as advanced firearms... so it makes no difference. Back then, opposing sides were fighting with 18th century weapons. Now they would both be fighting with modern weapons, there is no advantage unless you are suggesting citizens use 18th century weapons for some odd reason.


we're talking the difference between slings and power crossbows.


but is your logic really that if both 'sides' within a country have access to the same technology, it's all fair and square? like, okay... when we get to each side having baby nukes will you say it's still a-okay?

wow... i'm not even going to bother with this exaggeration. If you think that the US is going to nuke itself with somehow supporting the livelihood of government backers then




in bold

Last edited by StocktonFan : 07-11-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:36 PM   #34
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

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Originally Posted by iamgine
To overthrow the US government, gun or no gun makes little to none difference in this day and age. That reasoning is outdated. Perhaps a bigger gun such as rocket launcher or nuclear bomb is more like it. We totally should let the average citizens have these weapons just in case.

Really? Explain to me how the US would nuke itself without harming itself... And yes, we may lose.... but does that mean we shouldn't revolt?

an army is only an army if they have soliders. We've seen army's (in egypt) who've gone against their president as well...
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

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Originally Posted by StocktonFan
Really? Explain to me how the US would nuke itself without harming itself... And yes, we may lose.... but does that mean we shouldn't revolt?

an army is only an army if they have soliders. We've seen army's (in egypt) who've gone against their president as well...
No one says you shouldn't revolt. The issue is puny guns makes little to none difference in this day and age. Give yourself a chance with bigger guns.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

stocktonfan, i don't have a lot of motivation at this time to sift through your post, separate out the factual stuff from all the side opinions, and then construct replies that will make sense to you, fingers crossed.


in this thread you asked for opinions from liberals about the story as depicted, with an eye towards 2nd amendment gun issues.

my reply is-- the example is irrelevant. it has little or nothing to do with any difference the cops could have made or with gun issues in general. if that kid hadn't had a buckshot gun or whatever, he would have just used a baseball bat or improvised weapon of choice. just like humans have always done. the situation is not controversial or interesting in any way that i could tell.

mainly you come across as someone out to push your agenda and see how it flies. not someone really interested in other opinions or in any real debate. more like someone who wants to rant on a pet issue of yours and only needs some suckers to come along so you can start firing away.

so there's my opinion, and good luck with all that.
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Old 07-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: So liberals, tell me why cops didn't prevent this?

I think others have mentioned this, but I wanna say that it is truly dumb to think you can go against the government with guns.

This government has weapons that cannot be affected by guns, and a propaganda machine great enough to paint any group as "crazy" and having deserved whatever they get as a result.

Violence against this government is not a winning solution.

A winning solution against a tyrannical government would take people who are ready to DIE, not just kill for what they believe in.

The power of the public is in their numbers. the public would have to hit the government (and the corporate world) where it hurts them most.. In the pocket

If people in mass numbers started boycotting these large corporations while at the same time holding mass non violent (14 million people) demonstrations, while using whatever political means the public has left? then you would start to change the government in way that would benefit the public.

People would die because our government and our society is built on violence, but people would have to die in order to achieve such a goal.. You will never win a violent confrontation with this government. its a silly pipe dream.

You would have to do something like MLK did and lay lives on the line in a nonviolent manner in order to achieve any victory..

as the saying goes.. "the price of freedom is death"
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