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Old 02-21-2007, 11:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

It's not like I don't see the other side of the coin, though.

Many reasonable conservatives believe in small government and don't think the government should be in the business of distributing the people's hard-earned wealth. When you consider the fact that the uber-rich are almost always the first group targeted by democratic tax increases, one could say that they've certainly paid more than their fair share already.

However, this isn't some ridiculous or frivolous spending. This is stopping kids from having no options in life because they were born into poor families. I think we can all get together and agree that it's not good to have a kid's life decided for them before they're even born.
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Have you ever not had something. Anything? Anything at all. And someone else had lots of it. What does it feel like to be given something. MOST people when getting something given to them do not respect it. Thats the problem with just giving the welfare everthing.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Have you ever not had something. Anything? Anything at all. And someone else had lots of it. What does it feel like to be given something. MOST people when getting something given to them do not respect it. Thats the problem with just giving the welfare everthing.

sounds more like a rich kid's youth than anything related to welfare...

I see plenty rich kids who have everything and appreciate none of it because it was GIVEN to them and not earned..they grow up with a warped sense of reality and distorted sense of entitlement.

on the other hand

I see poor people who fall more in line with the wise old saying:"If you give a man fish, he can eat for a day, but if you teach him to fish, he can eat for a lifetime"

Poor people need support and they also need instruction on certain life skills..

Unless you grow up around people who become lawyers and doctors, you wont know how to become one yourself....

people still succeed, but these good folks are too far apart with too much suffering in between

in a truly civilized society we will have put our greed to the side and developed a plan to systematically progress people out of poverty to a livable wage
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
Have you ever not had something. Anything? Anything at all. And someone else had lots of it. What does it feel like to be given something. MOST people when getting something given to them do not respect it. Thats the problem with just giving the welfare everthing.
what does your bible say about this? Your post is fairly incoherent ( I get the point, sortof, but learn to construct complete sentences and a cogent arguement).
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
sounds more like a rich kid's youth than anything related to welfare...

I see plenty rich kids who have everything and appreciate none of it because it was GIVEN to them and not earned..they grow up with a warped sense of reality and distorted sense of entitlement.

on the other hand

I see poor people who fall more in line with the wise old saying:"If you give a man fish, he can eat for a day, but if you teach him to fish, he can eat for a lifetime"

Poor people need support and they also need instruction on certain life skills..

Unless you grow up around people who become lawyers and doctors, you wont know how to become one yourself....

people still succeed, but these good folks are too far apart with too much suffering in between

in a truly civilized society we will have put our greed to the side and developed a plan to systematically progress people out of poverty to a livable wage
Good post. However, low wages allow larger profit margins so that wont happen as long as our government is primarily working for the interests of big business. No capitalist wants to pay their workers anymore than they have to, but since those workers are also the consumers (in a composite sense), there has to be enough wages to allow people to consume the products... this is of course offset by the idea of credit (allowing people to pay fo rsomething based upon thier future earnings). Sad system, driving the basis of a strong economy (manufacturing and agriculture) overseas. A service economy is way too exposed to the world system.
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
sounds more like a rich kid's youth than anything related to welfare...

I see plenty rich kids who have everything and appreciate none of it because it was GIVEN to them and not earned..they grow up with a warped sense of reality and distorted sense of entitlement.

on the other hand

I see poor people who fall more in line with the wise old saying:"If you give a man fish, he can eat for a day, but if you teach him to fish, he can eat for a lifetime"

Poor people need support and they also need instruction on certain life skills..

Unless you grow up around people who become lawyers and doctors, you wont know how to become one yourself....

people still succeed, but these good folks are too far apart with too much suffering in between

in a truly civilized society we will have put our greed to the side and developed a plan to systematically progress people out of poverty to a livable wage


OK Karl Marx. Thanks for that little something...
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
OK Karl Marx. Thanks for that little something...

good to see you can combat his statement.

Seriously though, majority of poor people live there by choice. MY english teacher was providing some examples today (read a short story about parasites aka homeless people). One of her professor's best friend was a homeless person and would let him stay at his house for 2-weeks then get up and leave. She also gave some homeless man her leftovers one time and the guy just threw it in the street.

Also homeless people arent always homeless people. There was some man in Texas that lost his job and spent a whole year panhandling and made 40,000 dollars. He would drive his navigator to a nearby parking lot and go panhandle. He did this without never telling his wife and then he got a new job.

Pretty weird.
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

I'm one of the poor, I dont think I'm responsible for me being poor, I blame the California lottery coz everytime I buy tickets I dont win, its their fault not mine, its their reponsibility to make me a millionaire.
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
politicians can talk rhetoric all they want and it doesnt do a lick of good. Any oerson who studies poverty (here or in the developing world) will tell you that it is a very hard trend to buck. Poor people do hav eless advantages and are less likely to succeed in removing themselves from poverty. The idea of the American dream self made man is a statistical improbability and is really just a rhetorical myth. SOme of the hardest workers I know struggle below the poverty line because they have never had the opportunity to establish the skill sets needed to get out of the cycle.

This is bogus. They have the opportunity, it's called school, but they don't use it right and then make excuses for not doing well in school. True, they're not in the best environment, but are they really studying and doing everything they can to succeed in school?
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

interesting topic.

I see poverty more as a symptom than some kind of disease we can cure. You can treat symptoms but if you don't cure the disease the symptoms will keep coming back no matter the type of treatment. Thats why I think the programs in place to help the poor/homeless what have you will never truly succeed. It boils down to division of labor. Once the dominant human culture became the expansion agriculturalists you started to see sharper divisions in labor (skilled versus unskilled) and eventually we had a corresponding disparity in resource allocation. There were no "poor" people 10,000 years ago for good reason. If you look at many of the remaining tribal people in New Guinea and parts of Brazil there is no evidence of poverty there either. I guess if you look at the much bigger picture it makes much more sense.
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
what does your bible say about this? Your post is fairly incoherent ( I get the point, sortof, but learn to construct complete sentences and a cogent arguement).

What don't you understand? I was saying MOST people don't like getting something for nothing. It makes them feel like less of a person.

What does the bible say about helping the poor? It says to give them what they need bread food shelter.

But I don't think it says to support them when they could get a job. Instead they choose to lay around and not do anything with there life.
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

most of you are assuming that the poor are automatically welfare moochers. WHile there are certainly some of these people, many of the poor (as many as 28 million)in the US are in the category of "working poor". That is they work a fulltime job (or close to it) but still live below the poverty line. Many of them have a highschool education but we all know where that gets people in the career world these days (with most manufacturing jobs going overseas and agriculture increasingly automated). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_poor

Many of you talking about the poor as a burden on society are talking out of your asses and rehashing political rhetoric. Many of the poor are the people who serve you at your favorite fast food place, cut your lawn etc. The working poor are a vital part of the economy.

Perhaps if any of you had ever met real poor people instead of listening to some biased teacher who apparently has a chip on her shoulder you would have some empathy and understand that this is not a problem of laziness, but lack of job opportunities that pay a living wage.

Get out of your suburbs and attend a class in a large innercity public school and see what kind of educational opportunities you are presented with.


Again, there are people who choose to be homeless (like the teachers example) but this is a very very small % of the total poor in this country. Many homeless have mental illness issues that are either undiagnosed or untreated.
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
Have you ever not had something. Anything? Anything at all. And someone else had lots of it. What does it feel like to be given something. MOST people when getting something given to them do not respect it. Thats the problem with just giving the welfare everthing.

What does the bible say about helping the poor? It says to give them what they need bread food shelter.

But I don't think it says to support them when they could get a job. Instead they choose to lay around and not do anything with there life.
I find it very ironic that many people in this post talk about having access to education and then we have a presumably middle class kid from OH who cant even use anywhere close to proper grammar and spelling. Go US education system

again thsi points out the fact that most of you are out of touch with what it means to be poor. Most poor people work everyday trying to feed and shelter their kids. A minimum wage of $5.15 at 40 hours a week with no vacation or time off = a salary of less than $11,000

Last edited by boozehound : 02-22-2007 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

1.I live in PA.

2.Its a forum I don't want to spend my whole ****ing life talking on these so I type fast.

3.Your grammar is worse than mine.

4.Stop being a stuck up liberal.

5.Detroit smells like ****.
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Old 02-22-2007, 03:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
most of you are assuming that the poor are automatically welfare moochers. WHile there are certainly some of these people, many of the poor (as many as 28 million)in the US are in the category of "working poor". That is they work a fulltime job (or close to it) but still live below the poverty line. Many of them have a highschool education but we all know where that gets people in the career world these days (with most manufacturing jobs going overseas and agriculture increasingly automated). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_poor

Many of you talking about the poor as a burden on society are talking out of your asses and rehashing political rhetoric. Many of the poor are the people who serve you at your favorite fast food place, cut your lawn etc. The working poor are a vital part of the economy.

Perhaps if any of you had ever met real poor people instead of listening to some biased teacher who apparently has a chip on her shoulder you would have some empathy and understand that this is not a problem of laziness, but lack of job opportunities that pay a living wage.

Get out of your suburbs and attend a class in a large innercity public school and see what kind of educational opportunities you are presented with.


Again, there are people who choose to be homeless (like the teachers example) but this is a very very small % of the total poor in this country. Many homeless have mental illness issues that are either undiagnosed or untreated.



props to boozehound...good commentary
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