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Old 02-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #31
The_Masterplan
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

boozehound, im pretty sure the majority live there by choice. Sounds weird, but it is true
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
most of you are assuming that the poor are automatically welfare moochers. WHile there are certainly some of these people, many of the poor (as many as 28 million)in the US are in the category of "working poor". That is they work a fulltime job (or close to it) but still live below the poverty line. Many of them have a highschool education but we all know where that gets people in the career world these days (with most manufacturing jobs going overseas and agriculture increasingly automated). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_poor

Most people don't assume that the poor are automatically welfare moochers. The "working poor" are not looked down upon in this country. People and communities who look to entitlement programs as a career are the ones most Americans have a problem identifying with. There are tons of good to decent jobs out there for someone who wants them hard enough. I live in SoCal where there are tons of immigrants, I know a crapload of them who came to this country with no money, no education and overcame cultural and language barriers, and in within 10-15 years are making an income in the 50-100k range(in Socal it's not as much as it sounds though). Chances are no one is going to give you anything in this world, you are going to have to go after it yourself. No American born citizen can even start to know what it's like to have the disadvantage of starting out with nothing and getting a decent paying career in this country compared to an immigrant, yet you hear very little complaining about career opportunities in America from the Asian and Hispanic communities .



Quote:
Many of you talking about the poor as a burden on society are talking out of your asses and rehashing political rhetoric. Many of the poor are the people who serve you at your favorite fast food place, cut your lawn etc. The working poor are a vital part of the economy.

Again it's not the poor that most people feel are a burden to society. It's the people who rely on entitlement programs with no shame, and then have the gall to point fingers at society because they don't have a suburban house in a crime-free area when they have shown no initiative to better their lives and the lives of their children. Entitlement programs are there for helping, not a permanent solution. If your idea of a promotion is having a baby so you will get bump in 1st and 15th check from the government, you have no place in running your mouth. Single mothers who battle life out working a job in addition to seeking some sort of good job or education to get a good job, are looked up to way more than looked down upon in this country.

Quote:
Perhaps if any of you had ever met real poor people instead of listening to some biased teacher who apparently has a chip on her shoulder you would have some empathy and understand that this is not a problem of laziness, but lack of job opportunities that pay a living wage.

Get out of your suburbs and attend a class in a large innercity public school and see what kind of educational opportunities you are presented with.


Even without a college education, there are lots of jobs for a person with a HS Diploma/GED and an ounce of common sense out there that will get you out from behind the poverty line. Finding one of these jobs may not be easy, but they are out there to be had if you possess the willpower.
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:23 PM   #33
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Slightly off topic, but I think people in poverty feel that they cannot succeed in this world, which is why crime is pretty high. I have a few questions. If everyone had a job where they could live comfortably:

1)Would crime go down?

2)Would suicide go down?

3)Would divorce go down?


It might be off topic, but poverty leads to those three things, at least that's what I think.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:12 AM   #34
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek
Slightly off topic, but I think people in poverty feel that they cannot succeed in this world, which is why crime is pretty high. I have a few questions. If everyone had a job where they could live comfortably:

1)Would crime go down?

2)Would suicide go down?

3)Would divorce go down?


It might be off topic, but poverty leads to those three things, at least that's what I think.
nice idea, but any economist will tell you that a strong capitalist economy requires a certain amount of unemployment (about 1 in 100-1 in 30). THere has to be a free labor pool so that the laborers cannot make demands of the capitalists, production can expand, etc.
Crime might go down (except white collar crime), but I bet suicide and divorce would go up. Look at Tokyo's suicide rate, closely correltated with job stress.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Money isn't everything. Why are celbs always over dosing on drugs.

I think the live "comfortably".
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Even without a college education, there are lots of jobs for a person with a HS Diploma/GED and an ounce of common sense out there that will get you out from behind the poverty line. Finding one of these jobs may not be easy, but they are out there to be had if you possess the willpower.

What kind of job can you get without a college degree that pays livable wage?

Post Office? Thats about it these days....

*You wont get a good government job without some sort of college degree
*You wont get a corporate job without a college degree


you wind up taking on multiple jobs to make ends meet....

If you factor in the time and the money that will be expended just to live (not including tuition or kids), you begin to see what an enormous task it is even when you know what you are doing....

the feat gets that much more difficult if you have no body supporting you with sound advice about school and future planning for children and their schooling...

and people wonder why poor people remain poor and the poverty continues in cylces for generations... Its because the deck is seriously stacked against them and they need help..
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

interesting little article. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0223-09.htm

"A McClatchy Newspapers analysis of 2005 census figures, the latest available, found that nearly 16 million Americans are living in deep or severe poverty. A family of four with two children and an annual income of less than $9,903 - half the federal poverty line - was considered severely poor in 2005. So were individuals who made less than $5,080 a year.

Plagued by arthritis, back problems and myriad ailments from years of manual labor, Treece has been unable to work full time for 15 years. He's tried unsuccessfully to get benefits from the Social Security Administration, which he said disputes his injuries and work history.

In 2006, an extremely poor individual earned less than $5,244 a year, according to federal poverty guidelines. Treece said he earned about that much in 2006 doing odd jobs.

Wearing shoes with holes, a tattered plaid jacket and a battered baseball cap, Treece lives hand-to-mouth in a $450-a-month room in a nondescript boarding house in a high-crime neighborhood. Thanks to food stamps, the food pantry and help from relatives, Treece said he never goes hungry. But toothpaste, soap, toilet paper and other items that require cash are tougher to come by.

"Sometimes it makes you want to do the wrong thing, you know," Treece said, referring to crime. "But I ain't a kid no more. I can't do no time. At this point, I ain't got a lotta years left." "


We have to remeber when we talk about educational opportunities available today they are very different than those for older members of the workforce. This guy, who has worked construction his whole life, wold have been a teenager in the late-50's-early 60's. Not too great a time to be a poor black in the south as far as access to education goes. And these people are still part of the workforce.
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

some # from that same article.

"States with the most people in severe poverty:

California - 1.9 million
Texas - 1.6 million
New York - 1.2 million
Florida - 943,670
Illinois - 681,786
Ohio - 657,415
Pennsylvania - 618,229
Michigan - 576,428
Georgia - 562,014
North Carolina - 523,511"
What do many of these states have in common? They are either former manufacturing or agricultural powerhouses that are having severe economic issues as jobs disappear overseas.

"With the exception of Mexico and Russia, the U.S. devotes the smallest portion of its gross domestic product to federal anti-poverty programs, and those programs are among the least effective at reducing poverty, the study found. Again, only Russia and Mexico do worse jobs.

One in three Americans will experience a full year of extreme poverty at some point in his or her adult life, according to long-term research by Mark Rank, a professor of social welfare at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.

An estimated 58 percent of Americans between the ages of 20 and 75 will spend at least a year in poverty, Rank said. Two of three will use a public assistance program between ages 20 and 65, and 40 percent will do so for five years or more.

These estimates apply only to non-immigrants. If illegal immigrants were factored in, the numbers would be worse, Rank said."

Last edited by boozehound : 02-23-2007 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

How many families do you know that are only financially solvent due to staggering credit card debt? Its a large % of the lower middle class.

Also, I wonder how many poor people some of you actually know and talk to about poverty... I'd be interested to hear it.
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

If your poor and your ugly , fat and short forget about it.
You don't have a snowballs chance in hell of making it.
But if your poor and sexy while..
there is no such thing as the handsome homeless.....
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
What kind of job can you get without a college degree that pays livable wage?

Post Office? Thats about it these days....

*You wont get a good government job without some sort of college degree


There are a ton of blue collar jobs that pay a livable wage, you just have to put your time in, do a good job and be promoted up. The average pay of a truck driver in the US is $55k, even assistant managers working for Wal-Mart make close to that, learn to speak Spanish, hire a bunch of Mexicans and start a $100k-a-year landscaping business. The legal and illegal aliens doing landscaping on the side of the freeways and that have put 2 years in are making $34/hour where I am from. Hell, my cousin had a juvenile criminal record, had to flee his state, and never got passed the 10th grade. He now makes 120k a year, with 3 months off and could make even more if he wanted because he has offers to work on 4 different continents.

I don't know where you are from but you don't need a college education to get a good government job here in SoCal. LAPD here will hire you if you have an ounce of common sense, no criminal record, a pulse and a diploma. The CHP, firefighters, and Dept of Corrections are all hiring right now with just a diploma required and starting pay is $60-100k.

Like I said the jobs are out but no one is going to hand them to you. If there is no opportunity where you are from then move. Easier said than done I know, but asian and latino immigrants do it all the time under much more harsh and difficult conditions.
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Old 02-23-2007, 08:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

It's like my dad used to say: If you're not afraid to work, there will always be jobs out there for you. You have to earn it, but it can be done. College degree is required in certain fields, but there are jobs where only a high school diploma/GED is required. My friend in New York said UPS pays pretty well. If you only have a high school diploma, try UPS. It can't hurt.
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Old 02-23-2007, 08:39 PM   #43
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

heres the thing. my parents are immigrants to this country who came here with no money and did not speak english. My mom worked 2 jobs and my dad worked during the day and went to school at night. they scrimped and scratched for every dime they earned and saved it and spent it wisely. they ended up being very succesful, my dad was able to build his dream house (5000+ square feet just for him and my mom) and paid for my education.
they were never on welfare.
my point is, i wasnt born here, but i appreciate America 100%. It's cliche but this is truly the land of opportunity. You can come here with nothing and make something for yourself if you work hard and are smart about what you do with your money.
People who have been here all of their lives and complain that the "system" keeps them down get no sympathy for me. They may be poor, but they already have a huge advantage over what my parents and millions of other immigrants ever had. I was there, I have lived in the getto too. I thank my parents for getting me out and America for giving them the opportunity.
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #44
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Minimum wage is a joke. We need a real living wage. You know, the kind Theodore Roosevelt envisioned. Not just a wage to live on, but a wage to live for.
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:23 AM   #45
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers
I don't know where you are from but you don't need a college education to get a good government job here in SoCal. LAPD here will hire you if you have an ounce of common sense, no criminal record, a pulse and a diploma. The CHP, firefighters, and Dept of Corrections are all hiring right now with just a diploma required and starting pay is $60-100k.


I'm from Cali and I didn't even know that. I guess for those who are from New York City and don't have a college degree, move to southern California.
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