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Old 02-24-2007, 07:47 PM   #46
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Default the roots of poverty

the problem with poverty is that there are always a host of related problems that go along with it:
  • working poor that end up with two or three jobs because the wages arent sufficient to support their families
  • single parent homes where women are often the only source of income for the family
  • high dropout rates
  • drugs as an escape and/or a means to make money in poverty ridden areas. where there are drugs there are guns/violence/gangs. these environments make for very difficult places to be much less grow. alcohol problems also lead to domestic violence problems in homes
  • high levels of teen pregnancies in poor areas
  • high crime ridden areas provide a highly unstable environment for citizens
  • the welfare state which can, for some, kill incentive to work hard and thus institutionalizing poverty. when you get used to living a certain way, even if it is poverty, it is more threatening to change than to just keep doing what you are doing

  • there are many more issues that poverty brings. my point is that when people are poor, there are many obstacles that one has to dig themselves out of just to make ends meet and there are many things that challenge those who are poor that make it very hard to move out of poverty.
  • its not impossible to move out of poverty, but very difficult.
  • to understand the plight of the poor is the respectful thing for those of us who do not experience these kinds of crosses in life


some of my opinions are:
  • anyone who works a 40 hour work week should be able to provide for rent, food and clothing and a basic level of living that is dignified for human beings. the current minimum wage is severely inadequate; a real living wage is needed
  • we need to get rid of the current welfare system but still have a type of safety net for those who, for whatever reason, fall through the cracks. human beings should have enough food and safe shelter.
  • for the homeless, there has been some great breakthroughs in alleviating the problem. portland ore has found great success in getting people off the streets. there needs to be a greater political will to make this happen especially in urban areas
  • we need to have more rehab centers for those affected by addictions. anyone who wants help should have access to it

  • i do believe in personal responsibility. society has the responsibility to create the various environments to help people take responsibility in their lives and we need to be more compassionate and understand the roots of poverty.
  • i believe that the vast majority of people generally do want to work, provide for their families, contribute to society and be treated with the dignity and respect that accompany these aspects of human life
  • "anectdotal generalizations" do not respect the complexity of the problems of poverty nor the people who live in these situations.


what is needed are greater understanding as to the roots of the problems and a will to be part of the solutions to overcome these societal problems

Last edited by RainierBeachPoet : 02-24-2007 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: the roots of poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
the problem with poverty is that there are always a host of related problems that go along with it:
  • working poor that end up with two or three jobs because the wages arent sufficient to support their families
  • single parent homes where women are often the only source of income for the family
  • high dropout rates
  • drugs as an escape and/or a means to make money in poverty ridden areas. where there are drugs there are guns/violence/gangs. these environments make for very difficult places to be much less grow. alcohol problems also lead to domestic violence problems in homes

  • high levels of teen pregnancies in poor areas
  • high crime ridden areas provide a highly unstable environment for citizens
  • the welfare state which can, for some, kill incentive to work hard and thus institutionalizing poverty. when you get used to living a certain way, even if it is poverty, it is more threatening to change than to just keep doing what you are doing

  • there are many more issues that poverty brings. my point is that when people are poor, there are many obstacles that one has to dig themselves out of just to make ends meet and there are many things that challenge those who are poor that make it very hard to move out of poverty.
  • its not impossible to move out of poverty, but very difficult.
  • to understand the plight of the poor is the respectful thing for those of us who do not experience these kinds of crosses in life


some of my opinions are:
  • anyone who works a 40 hour work week should be able to provide for rent, food and clothing and a basic level of living that is dignified for human beings. the current minimum wage is severely inadequate; a real living wage is needed
  • we need to get rid of the current welfare system but still have a type of safety net for those who, for whatever reason, fall through the cracks. human beings should have enough food and safe shelter.
  • for the homeless, there has been some great breakthroughs in alleviating the problem. portland ore has found great success in getting people off the streets. there needs to be a greater political will to make this happen especially in urban areas
  • we need to have more rehab centers for those affected by addictions. anyone who wants help should have access to it

  • i do believe in personal responsibility. society has the responsibility to create the various environments to help people take responsibility in their lives and we need to be more compassionate and understand the roots of poverty.
  • i believe that the vast majority of people generally do want to work, provide for their families, contribute to society and be treated with the dignity and respect that accompany these aspects of human life
  • "anectdotal generalizations" do not respect the complexity of the problems of poverty nor the people who live in these situations.


what is needed are greater understanding as to the roots of the problems and a will to be part of the solutions to overcome these societal problems

a good reason for keeping abortion
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: the roots of poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masterplan
a good reason for keeping abortion

in a strange kind of way, the poor appreciate the gift of life differently than many suburban teens

perhaps it is in part because many are from immigrant communities where children are seen as a blessing not a burden. and who believe abortion is wrong

there is another curious dynamic that happens too. many young girls, who do not feel loved in their families actually WANT to have children (even as a teen) in order to have someone to love and care for. the desire for this can give them a sense of being someone

of course these romantic views dissipate quickly when the reality of having to wake up at 2:00am to feed the baby sets in. and when their life changes in that they have to care for this child no, 24/7, it puts them deeper in the whole of poverty
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
What kind of job can you get without a college degree that pays livable wage?

If they're living, then their jobs pay a livable wage.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:52 PM   #50
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers
Most people don't assume that the poor are automatically welfare moochers. The "working poor" are not looked down upon in this country. People and communities who look to entitlement programs as a career are the ones most Americans have a problem identifying with. There are tons of good to decent jobs out there for someone who wants them hard enough. I live in SoCal where there are tons of immigrants, I know a crapload of them who came to this country with no money, no education and overcame cultural and language barriers, and in within 10-15 years are making an income in the 50-100k range(in Socal it's not as much as it sounds though). Chances are no one is going to give you anything in this world, you are going to have to go after it yourself. No American born citizen can even start to know what it's like to have the disadvantage of starting out with nothing and getting a decent paying career in this country compared to an immigrant, yet you hear very little complaining about career opportunities in America from the Asian and Hispanic communities .





Again it's not the poor that most people feel are a burden to society. It's the people who rely on entitlement programs with no shame, and then have the gall to point fingers at society because they don't have a suburban house in a crime-free area when they have shown no initiative to better their lives and the lives of their children. Entitlement programs are there for helping, not a permanent solution. If your idea of a promotion is having a baby so you will get bump in 1st and 15th check from the government, you have no place in running your mouth. Single mothers who battle life out working a job in addition to seeking some sort of good job or education to get a good job, are looked up to way more than looked down upon in this country.



Even without a college education, there are lots of jobs for a person with a HS Diploma/GED and an ounce of common sense out there that will get you out from behind the poverty line. Finding one of these jobs may not be easy, but they are out there to be had if you possess the willpower.

Very well put. The owner of my company is a multi-millionaire. He came to America from Vietnam on a boat with nothing to his name. He worked hard and was able to earn his Ph.D. The liberals/socialist on this board don't want to admit that you have to work hard to succeed. If someone can come to this country with nothing and become a millionaire through hard work- then why do liberals make excuses for native-born people who don't succeed (not "can't" succeed) because they don't want to put any effort in?
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:44 PM   #51
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
What kind of job can you get without a college degree that pays livable wage?

Post Office? Thats about it these days....

*You wont get a good government job without some sort of college degree
*You wont get a corporate job without a college degree


you wind up taking on multiple jobs to make ends meet....

If you factor in the time and the money that will be expended just to live (not including tuition or kids), you begin to see what an enormous task it is even when you know what you are doing....

the feat gets that much more difficult if you have no body supporting you with sound advice about school and future planning for children and their schooling...

and people wonder why poor people remain poor and the poverty continues in cylces for generations... Its because the deck is seriously stacked against them and they need help..


A person with a good work ethic has a better chance of making above the minimum wage. Much better.

Minimum wage jobs are the lowest rung---and mostly filled by kids simply gaining experience since they don't have expenses and need to make a lot of money they simply need money.

Considering the multitude of jobs out there that require almost no education that offer a starting salary higher than minimum wage basic logic dictates that if you have a work ethic, you'll be making more than minimum wage.

All one needs to do is show up to work consistently and they'll advance past minimum wage. Or you know, apply to a manual labor job that offers pay quite a bit higher than minimum wage.

For example, Wal-Mart offers a hiring starting salary than minimum wage, I even recall seeing fast food places offer hiring starting salaries much higher than minimum wage in suburban Chicago several years ago.

Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Slightly over half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and about one-fourth were age 16-19. Among teenagers, about 10 percent earned $5.15 or less. About 2 percent of workers age 25 and over earned the minimum wage or less. However, among those age 65 and over, the proportion was 4 percent. (See table 1 and table 7.)

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2003.htm

Gosh, the majority of people working minimum wage jobs are kids or elderly people keeping busy before they die. The numbers will likely be skewed as a result of the new increase and subsuquent increase in unemployment among yourth---particularly minority youth but kids will still make up the majority of these jobs.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:46 PM   #52
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
Very well put. The owner of my company is a multi-millionaire. He came to America from Vietnam on a boat with nothing to his name. He worked hard and was able to earn his Ph.D. The liberals/socialist on this board don't want to admit that you have to work hard to succeed. If someone can come to this country with nothing and become a millionaire through hard work- then why do liberals make excuses for native-born people who don't succeed (not "can't" succeed) because they don't want to put any effort in?


That's cool. What company is this? What is his name?
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:46 PM   #53
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Also, Rasheed1,

The belief that schools are a great equalizer is complete nonsense, especially in light of the percentage of students who graduate illiterate. The great equalizer in society is the ability to read.

If one can read, one can fill out a job application, teach themselves about the revolutionary war, how to program a computer, or whatever else interests them. And with the advent of the internet, people can now get college educations for free:

Intended as an act of "intellectual philanthropy," OpenCourseWare (OCW) provides free access to course materials such as syllabi, video or audio lectures, notes, homework assignments, illustrations, and so on. So far, by giving away their content, the universities aren't discouraging students from enrolling as students. Instead, the online materials appear to be only whetting appetites for more.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0104/p13s02-legn.html
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Old 02-25-2007, 03:13 PM   #54
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
Very well put. The owner of my company is a multi-millionaire. He came to America from Vietnam on a boat with nothing to his name. He worked hard and was able to earn his Ph.D. The liberals/socialist on this board don't want to admit that you have to work hard to succeed. If someone can come to this country with nothing and become a millionaire through hard work- then why do liberals make excuses for native-born people who don't succeed (not "can't" succeed) because they don't want to put any effort in?

since every single person can become a mutli-millionaire with a Ph. D.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:41 PM   #55
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masterplan
since every single person can become a mutli-millionaire with a Ph. D.

That was an extreme situation. Obviously, if someone can come over here with nothing (not even speaking the language) and become rich through hard work, it shouldn't be too hard for someone to make it to the middle class, esp. if they are born in this country and *do* speak English.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:44 PM   #56
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reppy
Minimum wage is a joke. We need a real living wage. You know, the kind Theodore Roosevelt envisioned. Not just a wage to live on, but a wage to live for.

Do you ever think anything through? If the minimum wage were raise all the sudden to, say, $10, companies would have to fire workers. What's better, a minimum wage job or no job? Also, what do you do with the worker who were *already* making $10 an hour? You have to raise their pay. Then you have to raise the pay of the people who were making that amount of money to a higher rate, and on, and on. Maybe you should think about these things before you make glib posts.
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:52 PM   #57
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
Do you ever think anything through? If the minimum wage were raise all the sudden to, say, $10, companies would have to fire workers. What's better, a minimum wage job or no job? Also, what do you do with the worker who were *already* making $10 an hour? You have to raise their pay. Then you have to raise the pay of the people who were making that amount of money to a higher rate, and on, and on. Maybe you should think about these things before you make glib posts.

In that case, you should never, ever accept a pay raise. After all, that means someone else is going to want more money. And hey, it just might raise inflation. And that's a bad thing, right?

There are CEOs making 300-400 more times the annual wage of their employees. What, guy can't take a little pay cut to support his employees?

Here's the problem with your logic: poor people buy things. LOTS OF THINGS. They have families. Every single one of them needs to drive to work every single day. They have children that need to goto school and need new clothes. They need to eat every single day. Maybe some of them would like to move into a home but can't afford it. You don't think a few hundred extra bucks a month will be a huge boom to the local economy? That just makes too much sense.

Why is it that states that have increased their minimum wage above the federal level seen growth increases above those that haven't? Besides, no one is saying that we should just hike the minimum wage up to $10 over night. It's a process that has to be done slowly.

Minimum wage has not kept up with inflation. Beyond that, there are also many new expenses that people must pay that did not exist 30-40 years ago.

It would appear to me that you haven't thought this through, and instead rely on the rhetoric from the elite that want to tell you what's best for you. "No, trust me, I'm a millionaire; it's a bad idea for you to have money. Just let me invest it and um, maybe I'll let you have a ****ty job at one of my stores one of these days."

If you're running a company that can't afford to pay your workers above the federal minimum wage, maybe you should re-evaluate the way you do business.

Last edited by reppy : 02-25-2007 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:47 PM   #58
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

the only poor that i would consider helping are the ones living under extreme condition of poverty like in africa and india. those poor are not given a chance to earn their life. there are jobs everywhere in here, the people that are unemployed are either picky or lazy. the illegal spanish can live on and support their needy families doing the jobs they do. why can't a US citizen? unless of course you are disabled, then it's different.
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Old 02-26-2007, 12:41 AM   #59
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tidpen
the only poor that i would consider helping are the ones living under extreme condition of poverty like in africa and india. those poor are not given a chance to earn their life. there are jobs everywhere in here, the people that are unemployed are either picky or lazy. the illegal spanish can live on and support their needy families doing the jobs they do. why can't a US citizen? unless of course you are disabled, then it's different.

Most of the illegal Mexicans tend to live with all their family members in order to pay rent.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:54 AM   #60
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Default Re: OT : Are the Poor responsible for their own poverty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
Very well put. The owner of my company is a multi-millionaire. He came to America from Vietnam on a boat with nothing to his name. He worked hard and was able to earn his Ph.D. The liberals/socialist on this board don't want to admit that you have to work hard to succeed. If someone can come to this country with nothing and become a millionaire through hard work- then why do liberals make excuses for native-born people who don't succeed (not "can't" succeed) because they don't want to put any effort in?

Correct me if i'm wrong but didnt our government give aid to the Vietnamese that came here because of the war that was going on in their country? Yeah maybe you're boss came with nothing and got a nice starter package when he got here.
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