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Old 08-14-2013, 04:20 PM   #16
juju151111
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
PS - I am not hating on The Dream, in fact, I think his peak play is top five all-time. I respect and admire his skill set and if it wasn't for Jordan (and perhaps, better teammates) he could have achieved A LOT more. But I hate the what-if game, bottom line his resume at the end of his career does not stack up with the rest of the players like Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Shaquille, LeBron, Kobe, Kareem etc.

Heck, even Moses arguably has had a better career.
All those players had better teammates then Hakeem. What a coincidence. Kobe has only won 2 rings has the main guy just like Hakeem. Hakeem went through like 3 teams with a higher seed in 95 for his championship. No HCA.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by SilkkTheShocker
Was it really 9 times he lost in the 1st round? Wow. Thats even worse. I thought it was 8.
Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

I don't think Hakeem is overrated at all for the record. But he seems to be in the MJ class where nothing can be said about their career lows. I think its amazing what he did with some of those average at best Rocket teams. I mean the guy went to war with Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell. Not bad players by any means. But compared to the rest of the league, not impressive.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
I mean as an overall leader & player.
He was top 5 in MVP voting from 92' to 96'.

Hakeem has always been great, but you give those other legends 9 chances to win a 1st round series and I don't think they'd fail.

Kobe almost achieved that in 2 tries, against a far superior team with far less talent then Hakeem had. Heck, Kobe dropped 50 in game 6 and if his bum ass teammates would attempt to defend & rebound, chances are Tim Thomas never gets off that 3.
Kobe lost both times against the suns. Idk what your talking about really. He didn't make the playoffs in 05. Also Hakeem went through the 86 Lakers who just win a chip the year before.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by Mr Exlax
Look at the teammates they all had vs the ones Hakeem had though bro. I mean, you're looking at team accomplishments correct? If we're comparing players then you kinda sorta have to look at their career numbers I would think.

This is why it's so hard to rank players.
I am looking at his overall resume, and what is missing? (or shall I say lacking in comparison to other greats)

Winning, and to some extent personal accomplishments.
At his peak? Probably top 5 player, easily top 10.
Overall impact? Easily top 15...you have guys like Moses, Baylor & Oscar who had a huge impact as well.

I don't know, I just have a hard time ranking Hakeem in the top 10 based on his resume. His 1 MVP, 2 DPOTY, 2 Finals MVP just doesn't look as great as the other 10 players I have on my list.

I would place him either 11th or 12th, it's between him and Moses to me.
I still think I'm giving him the utmost respect, no?
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:25 PM   #21
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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But he seems to be in the MJ class where nothing can be said about their career lows.

What career lows? You mean playoff exits to superior teams? Or when MJ returned from baseball and the Bulls lost to Orlando?
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.

Its all opinion. In my personal opinion, that is way too many damn times to lose in the 1st round. Only one team can win the championship, but you want to advance as far as possible. Like I said, Hakeem tends to get Jordan treatment. Not overrated, but legend has grown since retirement. It happens. I expect KG to get the same treatment when he calls it quits.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by Marchesk
What career lows? You mean playoff exits to superior teams? Or when MJ returned from baseball and the Bulls lost to Orlando?

I never said Jordan had a ton of career lows. But its almost sacrilegious to say anything that isn't praising either guy. I don't really see how Hakeem deserves that distinction.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
This is why it's so hard to rank players.
I am looking at his overall resume, and what is missing? (or shall I say lacking in comparison to other greats)

Winning, and to some extent personal accomplishments.
At his peak? Probably top 5 player, easily top 10.
Overall impact? Easily top 15...you have guys like Moses, Baylor & Oscar who had a huge impact as well.

I don't know, I just have a hard time ranking Hakeem in the top 10 based on his resume. His 1 MVP, 2 DPOTY, 2 Finals MVP just doesn't look as great as the other 10 players I have on my list.

I would place him either 11th or 12th, it's between him and Moses to me.
I still think I'm giving him the utmost respect, no?
What's the difference with him and Kobe? Kobe asserted himself in 02-03 and was the best player on LA at that time. He lost with Shaq in 03, lost again to a underdog team pistons,didn't make playoffs, and 2 first round exit. Magically in 08 he makes it to the finals. I wonder what changed between 05 to 08.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.

Okay, so we should not include winning & personal achievements then?
Why isn't Oscar on anyone's top 10 list then? Wilt is on the list because his individual impact is legendary, moreso then Hakeem. People love to fantasize about his inflated numbers.

Heck, I probably respect Hakeem more then Wilt when it comes to winning anyways. I understand that Hakeem had bad teammates throughout his career, but in retrospect shall I give him someone else's spot because of it?

He still lost 9 times, that's A LOT. That definitely influences my ranking. I mean, if you're a legend... a top 10 player of all-time, I'd think you can at least upset a team ONCE in nine ****ing tries.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
This is why it's so hard to rank players.
I am looking at his overall resume, and what is missing? (or shall I say lacking in comparison to other greats)

Winning, and to some extent personal accomplishments.
At his peak? Probably top 5 player, easily top 10.
Overall impact? Easily top 15...you have guys like Moses, Baylor & Oscar who had a huge impact as well.

I don't know, I just have a hard time ranking Hakeem in the top 10 based on his resume. His 1 MVP, 2 DPOTY, 2 Finals MVP just doesn't look as great as the other 10 players I have on my list.

I would place him either 11th or 12th, it's between him and Moses to me.
I still think I'm giving him the utmost respect, no?

I can dig it bro. When I rank players, I don't look at championships to be totally honest. I look at what I see/saw on the floor. I take into consideration who they played against, I take into consideration their teammates and even the coach. I don't have a top 10 though. It's literally impossible for me to decide. I do think he's one of the top 10 players in the history of the NBA though. Not even because I'm from Houston or nothing like that. Just his skills and impact on the floor. I mean yeah there were some playoff games where he stunk up the joint, but hell that's every single superstar. It's so much of a team game and I honestly think most people overlook that. Let's take Kobe after Shaq, but before Gasol. He lost in the first round. Not because he wasn't good enough to win. He did his part. He was the best player on the court at all times. The difference is that his team sucked compared to the team he went up against. That's how I look at it. I don't place really any blame on him for losing. I was impressed that they even made it there. Oh and I hate the Lakers lol.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by SilkkTheShocker
Its all opinion. In my personal opinion, that is way too many damn times to lose in the 1st round. Only one team can win the championship, but you want to advance as far as possible. Like I said, Hakeem tends to get Jordan treatment. Not overrated, but legend has grown since retirement. It happens. I expect KG to get the same treatment when he calls it quits.

I felt that way initially, but I think it's more likely he gets the David Robinson treatment. Pierce is by no means in even second-year Duncan's class, but they're both exceptional defensive bigs (who were also great rebounders) who relied a lot on a jump-shooting/finesse face up game. It's possible history will be kinder to Garnett but I think most people will remember Dirk as being better (for the record I'd take KG, but the same thing happened with Barkley/Malone and Robinson, and they didn't win championships).
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Originally Posted by juju151111
What's the difference with him and Kobe? Kobe asserted himself in 02-03 and was the best player on LA at that time. He lost with Shaq in 03, lost again to a underdog team pistons,didn't make playoffs, and 2 first round exit. Magically in 08 he makes it to the finals. I wonder what changed between 05 to 08.

Are you in my head man?
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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Are you in my head man?
..............
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

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What's the difference with him and Kobe? Kobe asserted himself in 02-03 and was the best player on LA at that time. He lost with Shaq in 03, lost again to a underdog team pistons,didn't make playoffs, and 2 first round exit. Magically in 08 he makes it to the finals. I wonder what changed between 05 to 08.

Ah, in 2004 as you recall he was going to trial in between games. That definitely affected his mindset. Especially considering he had his best year of his career in 2003. He had a disappointing season in 04', no doubt.

In 2005, LA had a winning record and were in the playoff picture until both Kobe & Odom got injured in the 2nd half. Rudy T left due to an illness and we were playing without our two best players and without a coach. Our record was 12-27 without Rudy T I believe.

In 06' & 07', Kobe almost led his pathetic team past a very good Phoenix squad. He hit a game-winner, dropped 50, had that huge poster on Nash that completely shifted momentum for the entire series.

Kobe lost twice in the 1st round, not 9 times though and one of those times he almost won it for his squad. Then the next season LA acquires Pau Gasol; a guy who hasn't won a single playoff game as a leader, and Kobe takes his team to 3 straight final appearances.

Of course you need talent to go deep in the playoffs, but Kobe almost made it past the first round in his 1st try with inferior talent then what Hakeem had to work with.
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