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Old 08-22-2013, 11:07 AM   #76
brantonli
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
Utter bullshit.

You can have empathy for someone and still realize they are guilty and must pay the penalty. It's a pretty significant part of Christianity. He was a ****ed kid going through a lot of shit, and he bought into the hacker ethic of there should no secrets ever and he made terrible decision and it cost him. But let's be clear. He's guilty.

So basically you're saying 'Ok I feel sort of sorry (not really), but he broke the law, and the law is the final word', while everybody is saying 'I feel really sorry for him, and the law is wrong'. Or that's what it seems like to me.

So I guess what really should be the topic is 'Should the laws be changed?'
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:10 AM   #77
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

who the hell decides to convert to being a female while doing a 35 year bid.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #78
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Nope the new premise should be:

1. What does KevNYC think? You have two possible outcome. If you agree with him, your position is incorrect. If you disagree, your position is correct.

That should be the new gold standard in seperating truth from fiction.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:16 AM   #79
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
You're constructing the very definition of a strawman argument.

Also don't accuse me of not having compassion. When I showed that towards manning earlier, I was accused of smearing him. Also I doubt he gets raped ever at Leavenworth, that's more of a state prison issue. You finding his motives acceptable, doesn't make him any less culpable.

No, he's making points beyond the surface level, something you can't seem to go beyond or want to acknowledge. Quite the artful dodger you are being here.

And one or two sentences doesn't make you seem compassionate when everything else you write comes off as the opposite.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:55 PM   #80
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan


Sometimes laws are unjust. A slave runs away from his owner he broke the law technically, that means he is undeserving of sympathy? You don't think it is silly to equate slavery with a guy who voluntarily signed up for the Army and who went through all the training to get the clearance he received? He was told over and over the consequences of revealing classified information. The slave had no choice with the situation given.

If a soldier sees a war crime, and is ordered to cover it up, but because of morals discloses it to the few reporters willing to go against the US government and then is punished for it he doesn't deserve sympathy? Are you under the impression that he only gave up information pertaining to alledged war crimes? Are you under the impression he looked over each document before giving it to wikileaks? If he had only given up data revealing suspected war crimes then he wouldn't be in this situation. It's the 700,000 plus documents he gave up that had nothing to do with war crimes that has ****ed him. There have been other soldiers and contractors who have revealed suspected war crimes and they have not been imprisoned over it.

1 question were the nazi and imperial japanese soldiers wrong to follow orders when they were ordered to destroy evidence of war crimes? The revealing of war crimes (people committing atrocities isn't what has gotten him in hot water) didn't lead to the full weight of the US government coming down on him. Revealing interactions with our allies amongst other things is what led to him getting the hammer. Was Manning ordered to destroy evidence? No. Did he bring any of this to the attention of his command or JAG? Did he attempt to do so and was rebuffed so felt he had no choice but to do a document dump of what he saw and what he didn't read over?

Edit: Honestly what for the US government apologists here:

what is the problem in a free country for the citizenry to know how many civilian's their government has killed in military operations? what is the problem with letting American citizens know that the vast majority of gitmo detainees have been imprisoned without trial and on no evidence? What is the problem with letting American citizens see a video of US soldiers killing civilians and first responders? Why would you need to know how many people are killed in a war? There has been extensive coverage with regards to GITMO and the treatment of prisoners. Are you unaware of this? My problem is not with the video being leaked showing soldiers violating the Geneva convention. If that had been the extent of what he did (something that others have revealed; Abu Gharabe as one example) then I suspect the reaction would have been very different from the military and the Administration.

Bradley mannings leaks didn't contain top secret fighter plane designs, missile designs or any other weapon design. They didnt disclose the identity of specific CIA or military agents. They didnt disclose CIA or military operations. They didnt disclose future US military plans. You don't understand. He went through the training which explicitely mentioned it would be a violation to reveal classified data. He willfully disregarded that and dumped a few hundred thousand files to wikileaks, which revealed classified, secret and top secret data. I am amazed this is so hard to understand. Maybe it is because you're a civilian who has never had the classified training. I doubt to this day the majority of those files have been gone over by wikileaks, so who really knows the extent of the damage? The government certainly wouldn't reveal the extent of it.

Which piece of disclosed information should not be known by the citizenry of a free country? Why do you need to know it? Your feeling is that all data within the US government and military should be available to the general public or is it just certain data you feel should be available at all times to the public? I take it you think nothing should be classified?

Is it possible to agree with a few things Manning did while disagreeing with other things? I feel the same about Snowden. I've no problem with him as an NSA contractor objecting to domestic spying as the NSA is specifically charged with none domestic data gathering. My problem with him was revealing the data gathering we do overseas as the NSA is lawfully charged to do this. That aspect he knew taking the job.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:49 PM   #81
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Why would you need to know how many people are killed in a war? There has been extensive coverage with regards to GITMO and the treatment of prisoners. Are you unaware of this? My problem is not with the video being leaked showing soldiers violating the Geneva convention. If that had been the extent of what he did (something that others have revealed; Abu Gharabe as one example) then I suspect the reaction would have been very different from the military and the Administration.

Please re-read what you just said and really think about it.

Quote:
You don't understand. He went through the training which explicitely mentioned it would be a violation to reveal classified data.

I wonder what kind of training the people went through that led them to shoot unarmed civilians. Did anything ever happen to them? Are they going to jail for 35 years?

Quote:
He willfully disregarded that and dumped a few hundred thousand files to wikileaks, which revealed classified, secret and top secret data. I am amazed this is so hard to understand. Maybe it is because you're a civilian who has never had the classified training. I doubt to this day the majority of those files have been gone over by wikileaks, so who really knows the extent of the damage? The government certainly wouldn't reveal the extent of it.

What "top secret" data did he release? I keep hearing people shriek and howl about all this super sensitive information he released... I haven't seen anyone actually point to anything that was damaging. Embarrassing? Yes. Threat to national security? Not from what I've seen.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:22 PM   #82
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcanzIIravor
Is it possible to agree with a few things Manning did while disagreeing with other things? I feel the same about Snowden. I've no problem with him as an NSA contractor objecting to domestic spying as the NSA is specifically charged with none domestic data gathering. My problem with him was revealing the data gathering we do overseas as the NSA is lawfully charged to do this. That aspect he knew taking the job.

Totally worth it find out the government is violating the 4th amendment. How are you even 1% ok with American's information being monitored without a specific warrant?

Quote:
you don't think it is silly to equate slavery with a guy who voluntarily signed up for the Army and who went through all the training to get the clearance he received? He was told over and over the consequences of revealing classified information. The slave had no choice with the situation given.

Just trying to make a point that laws are sometimes unjust. The laws used to imprison manning are unjust imo. Why is dick cheney and scooter libby not in jail for revealing the identity of Plame? Why aren't obama administration officials in jail for disclosing the existence of the CIA kill list or as they call the disposition matrix? The disposition matrix was classified at the time the obama administration leaked it for purely political purposes. Why isn't that a crime if revealing classified information is a crime?

Quote:
Are you under the impression that he only gave up information pertaining to alledged war crimes? Are you under the impression he looked over each document before giving it to wikileaks? If he had only given up data revealing suspected war crimes then he wouldn't be in this situation. It's the 700,000 plus documents he gave up that had nothing to do with war crimes that has ****ed him. There have been other soldiers and contractors who have revealed suspected war crimes and they have not been imprisoned over it.

Please either:
A. Name the specific CIA, Military, or other US government operative who has been killed or compromised or in any other way hurt because of the manning leaks (Eg. Scooter Libby's leaks disclosed Plame, which ended her career as a CIA operative). Or, name the specific CIA military, or other US government operation hurt by Manning's leaks, or name one american citizen harmed by manning's leaks? Or, top secret military designs/plans that were disclosed.

or

B. Admit that the government couldn't not prove that Manning's leak did any damage at all other than embarrassing the government. Basically we found out our diplomats talk a lot of shit like gossipy high school girls. And that our military hides the evidence of civilians they kill and protects the killers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3696501.html
Bradley Manning Sentencing Testimony Suggests WikiLeaks Not Responsible For Any Deaths

Quote:
The revealing of war crimes (people committing atrocities isn't what has gotten him in hot water) didn't lead to the full weight of the US government coming down on him. Revealing interactions with our allies amongst other things is what led to him getting the hammer. Was Manning ordered to destroy evidence? No. Did he bring any of this to the attention of his command or JAG? Did he attempt to do so and was rebuffed so felt he had no choice but to do a document dump of what he saw and what he didn't read over?

Ya revealing classified information is why he is sentenced to 35 years. Remember that obama official who disclosed the cia kill list for public reasons and how he was also sentenced to 35 years ... oh wait.

According to Manning he did try to bring up the issue internally to his superiors, but was told to stop. What was he supposed to shut up about the fact that we are holding innocent people in gitmo in some cases for 10+ years? and sit on evidence that american soldiers killed civilians (evidence that the pentagon refused to give to reuters under the freedom of information act, which they should have because it wasn't operationally sensitive)? and evidence that proved the pentagon was lying when they said they weren't tracking how many civilians we are killing with our military operations? The real crime is the truth got out right?

Quote:
Why would you need to know how many people are killed in a war?

Because it is wrong to kill civilians. I am only talking about civilian casualties. Arabs are still human man ...

Quote:
There has been extensive coverage with regards to GITMO and the treatment of prisoners. Are you unaware of this? My problem is not with the video being leaked showing soldiers violating the Geneva convention. If that had been the extent of what he did (something that others have revealed; Abu Gharabe as one example) then I suspect the reaction would have been very different from the military and the Administration.

Manning's leaks helped confirm that the US government knows full well that it is holding innocent people in Gitmo and yet with full knowledge of their innocence refuses to release them. They also force feed them.

Quote:
Manning's leaks included more than 700 Guantanamo detainee files, many revealing that the U.S. had little reason to continue holding its prisoners. The 250,000 State Department cables he leaked detailed U.S. diplomatic pressure on foreign countries to ignore or excuse extraordinary renditions carried out by the CIA in apparent violation of international law. They also showed that the U.S. routinely failed to investigate reports of prisoner abuse and summary execution by the Iraqi military.

manning's leaks helped confirm all of that, but you probably are one of those people that think its ok to hold them indefinitely without trial...

Quote:
You don't understand. He went through the training which explicitely mentioned it would be a violation to reveal classified data. He willfully disregarded that and dumped a few hundred thousand files to wikileaks, which revealed classified, secret and top secret data. I am amazed this is so hard to understand. Maybe it is because you're a civilian who has never had the classified training. I doubt to this day the majority of those files have been gone over by wikileaks, so who really knows the extent of the damage? The government certainly wouldn't reveal the extent of it.

Haha they had a whole trial government could not find one instance where damage was done. they punishing him for the good he did. Government had 3 years to prep for the case

Quote:
Why do you need to know it? Your feeling is that all data within the US government and military should be available to the general public or is it just certain data you feel should be available at all times to the public? I take it you think nothing should be classified?

Anything that is not operationally sensitive (eg. future military plans or the position of our troops/ships) or stuff like military designs should be disclosed. Basically anything covered under the freedom of information act should be disclosed.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:42 AM   #83
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

I feel sorry for anyone who considers this kid a "hero". He KNEW what he did was wrong. A twenty-something, low ranking enlisted member has the rules, restrictions, training and PENALTIES of the proper handling of classified material hammered into them constantly!!!! He obviously had some issues - the whole gender issue, issue, etc. Did the US Army "fail" him by deploying him? I'm not sure, but he would have definitely been a "red flag" for me if he was one of my subordinates. His release of "atrocities and war crimes" as a defense is crap - guess what happens in wars???? People die - that's what happens in wars - do really shitty things take place in wars???? Yes, yes they do. All kinds of really shitty things are taking place in Syria right now - and they're getting done....ready for this....shocker....without any Americans there!!!! Bottom line, Bradley "Chelsea" Manning betrayed not only his Country and Service, but his fellow Soldiers....his sentencing of 35 years - eligible for parole in less than nine years is BS and a slap in the face to the men and women of the Armed Forces who do their duty and place their lives on the line. They don't get to choose the next shit hole they get sent to!
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:00 PM   #84
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerjimmy
I feel sorry for anyone who considers this kid a "hero". He KNEW what he did was wrong. A twenty-something, low ranking enlisted member has the rules, restrictions, training and PENALTIES of the proper handling of classified material hammered into them constantly!!!! He obviously had some issues - the whole gender issue, issue, etc. Did the US Army "fail" him by deploying him? I'm not sure, but he would have definitely been a "red flag" for me if he was one of my subordinates. His release of "atrocities and war crimes" as a defense is crap - guess what happens in wars???? People die - that's what happens in wars - do really shitty things take place in wars???? Yes, yes they do. All kinds of really shitty things are taking place in Syria right now - and they're getting done....ready for this....shocker....without any Americans there!!!! Bottom line, Bradley "Chelsea" Manning betrayed not only his Country and Service, but his fellow Soldiers....his sentencing of 35 years - eligible for parole in less than nine years is BS and a slap in the face to the men and women of the Armed Forces who do their duty and place their lives on the line. They don't get to choose the next shit hole they get sent to!

So you think that Imperial Japanese soldiers and Nazi soldiers were right in following orders right?

Quite frankly we had no business invading Iraq. The invasion of Iraq would have been considered a war crime if we werent so powerful.

Obviously Chelsea Manning has issues and fine lets say she deserves her punishment. (I just want to restate that the US government dispute immense effort has not prove a single instance where an american person/agent/operation/asset/anything was compromised by her leaks.)

Why are you ok with dick cheney, scooter libby and the obama administration for leaking classified information for political benefit?

Quote:
His release of "atrocities and war crimes" as a defense is crap - guess what happens in wars???? People die - that's what happens in wars - do really shitty things take place in wars???? Yes, yes they do. All kinds of really shitty things are taking place in Syria right now - and they're getting done....ready for this....shocker....without any Americans there!!!!

If you are really happy with our government having the equivalent morals to Bashar Assad you and I will have to disagree.

Why is that the actual information leaked doesnt offend you at all?

- Are you ok with killing civilians and first responders?
-Are you ok with the pentagon refusing to release non-operationally sensitive information to reuters under the freedom of information act?
-Are you ok with the pentagon claiming they dont keep track of civilian casualties when they clearly do?
- Are you ok with the government holding detainees in gitmo for 10+ years on no evidence? Think about that for a minute, these people have been taken from their families and imprisoned on zero evidence for more than a decade. Is that what America is now? Thats soviet gulag like.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:03 PM   #85
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

*Chelsea
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #86
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

MavsSF dominating this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonD13
*Chelsea

Seeing people genuinely refer to him as "Chelsea (Bradley) Manning" makes me nauseous. I'm sure he isn't offended by being referred to as a male, which is what the entire world knows him as. When I first saw Chelsea Manning, I thought it was his sister or something, until the story stopped making sense and I had to google "Chelsea Manning."
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #87
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

This thread pretty much just exposed KevinNYC. If this was the Bush administration, I can all but guarantee that he would be on the other side. I can't respect people that have their tongues glued to a parties' ****
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:47 PM   #88
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Snowden must have information on MK Ultra. He has said most information he has he has not released. He should post the truth that MK Ultra is still in operation and the horrific unimaginable abuse it causes to innocent people including many children.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #89
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by secund2nun
Snowden must have information on MK Ultra. He has said most information he has he has not released. He should post the truth that MK Ultra is still in operation and the horrific unimaginable abuse it causes to innocent people including many children.

Do you have any proof or evidence that he has info on MK-ULTRA?
How about that MK-ULTRA is still operational?

I don't mean to sound like a wet-blanket, but there is no evidence that the program is still in place or tat it ever captured children to "Monarch mind-control" them. Except for a few tall-stories that also involve Jimmy Saville dressed as a baphomet.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #90
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Default Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
Seeing people genuinely refer to him as "Chelsea (Bradley) Manning" makes me nauseous.

Why is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
I'm sure he isn't offended by being referred to as a male, which is what the entire world knows him as.
Chelsea Manning explicitly said the opposite

Quote:
As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility). I look forward to receiving letters from supporters and having the opportunity to write back.

Thank you,

Chelsea E. Manning

Manning was exposed after having several online chats with a well-known hacker named Adrian Lamo who is himself bisexual and that was one of the reason Manning sought him out. Lamo also told Manning his ex was a MTF, a male who transitioned to female, exactly what Manning is hoping to do. During those chats Manning told Lamo
Quote:
I wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me plastered all over the world press as a boy.

Reportedly the Bradly Manning support network started reffering to Manning as her/she a year ago. This is why I thought it was ironic, that I mentioned Manning's mindset I got accused of smearing him.

So Mr. Callahan again, I ask why does this make you nauseous?
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