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Old 09-02-2013, 03:48 AM   #316
HarryCallahan
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daily


Oh f*ck I'm dying here..

This thread has officially gone off the rails when we start quoting that crackpots work

Fellow at Cambridge, fellow at Harvard= Crackpot. Got it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
Yes, somewhere along the 70 or so years since then people who have spent their whole life against the war might have mentioned the fact they were trying to surrender as they were bombed. No one talks about it because it's a rewriting of history after the fact.

We can go back and forth if the bomb was necessary and you probably have my opinion dead wrong, but going back and rewriting the situation to remove any ambiquity is just wrong and tbh, kind of lazy.

And note: Obama should go to Congress if he is not 100% decided on an action. Congress in theory represents the american people, and the people don't want to attack Syria. I don't get how being prudent makes one week.

Stop being disingenuous. Plenty of people cite this, there have been many books have been written. It is false to state that "somewhere along the 70 or so years since then people who have spent their whole life against the war might have mentioned the fact they were trying to surrender as they were bombed" your ignorance doesn't change the fact that Hirohito was trying to avoid being tried for war crimes and retain the position of emperor, he got both things anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second paragraph? It's fairly vague. It was wrong to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there's no ambiguity about it.

Don't pay attention to people who speak like that. They are partisan hacks. If he had an (R) next to his name, he'd be "prudent and all the (D)'s would be calling him either a war criminal or weak.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:20 PM   #317
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
Fellow at Cambridge, fellow at Harvard= Crackpot. Got it.




Stop being disingenuous. Plenty of people cite this, there have been many books have been written. It is false to state that "somewhere along the 70 or so years since then people who have spent their whole life against the war might have mentioned the fact they were trying to surrender as they were bombed" your ignorance doesn't change the fact that Hirohito was trying to avoid being tried for war crimes and retain the position of emperor, he got both things anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second paragraph? It's fairly vague. It was wrong to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there's no ambiguity about it.

Don't pay attention to people who speak like that. They are partisan hacks. If he had an (R) next to his name, he'd be "prudent and all the (D)'s would be calling him either a war criminal or weak.

The people in charge didn't want to surrender, you're just talking about something's that's utterly false. I'm glad you found someone to support your position, it's still revisionist bullshit.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:13 PM   #318
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

trying to keep a little neural space open to evaluate this thing. right now it sure sounds like this is way more than just some batshit crazy rebels pulling cruel stunts. more like huge segments of the general populace who are being treated mercilessly.


9 questions about Syria you were too embarrassed to ask
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rassed-to-ask/



the way this runs (from what i've read so far), it almost doesn't matter to me that assad may have used banned weapons. he's absolutely brutalising the people, either way.

my other concern is still the same, tho-- why should the US have to be one of the only payers for a bombing operation? no, tragic as it is, we must still wait for the UN mandate... no?
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:26 PM   #319
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

What i don't like about an intervention here is I don't see how it helps.
1) I don't see a clear message from the rebels. I'm not even sure it's remotely clear who leads them.
2) BOTH sides are committing atrocities. Assad used chemical weapons. Rephrehensible. But if we were to remove him, we'd put more than likely just as bad people in charge, but more fragmented. Meaning most likely more war.
3) A measured (limited) response shows what? That we can blow the shit out of Syria? Anyone doubt that?

Millitary action's purpose should be to accomplish an aim and prevent more conflict. This accomplishes nothing and extends the current conflict. if they wanted Assad out, they could have helped a long time ago, not now when he's entrenched again.

I say no go on Syria.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:28 PM   #320
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

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Originally Posted by Deleterious
funny article. lots of lies.
Such as what? It's all very basic, it gives the viewpoint of the US, not says the viewpoint is right. It's not slanted, it's factual, but very basic.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:12 PM   #321
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleterious
funny article. lots of lies.
and you sure cleared them up with your helpful message.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
What i don't like about an intervention here is I don't see how it helps.
1) I don't see a clear message from the rebels. I'm not even sure it's remotely clear who leads them.
2) BOTH sides are committing atrocities. Assad used chemical weapons. Rephrehensible. But if we were to remove him, we'd put more than likely just as bad people in charge, but more fragmented. Meaning most likely more war.
3) A measured (limited) response shows what? That we can blow the shit out of Syria? Anyone doubt that?

Millitary action's purpose should be to accomplish an aim and prevent more conflict. This accomplishes nothing and extends the current conflict. if they wanted Assad out, they could have helped a long time ago, not now when he's entrenched again.

I say no go on Syria.
1) i don't see that it matters. the rebels most likely are a wild mix of people with all kinds of agendas and all kinds of situations who pretty much no longer want to be stomped on. many are just innocents caught in the crossfire with nothing to do but fight back.


2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

i totally agree with you that who knows what happens if assad goes down? this is our concern, dude.


3) i don't know. maybe you're right.


still, as many ways as a response might go wrong or be inadequate, if the UN votes for it, the UN votes for it. we have responsibility in these kinds of matters, don't we?
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:23 PM   #322
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
and you sure cleared them up with your helpful message.



1) i don't see that it matters. the rebels most likely are a wild mix of people with all kinds of agendas and all kinds of situations who pretty much no longer want to be stomped on. many are just innocents caught in the crossfire with nothing to do but fight back.


2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

i totally agree with you that who knows what happens if assad goes down? this is our concern, dude.


3) i don't know. maybe you're right.


still, as many ways as a response might go wrong or be inadequate, if the UN votes for it, the UN votes for it. we have responsibility in these kinds of matters, don't we?
I'd be more in line with a UN sponsored initative. I don't like the thought of us firing a bunch of cruise missles in to prove a point though.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:23 AM   #323
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
The people in charge didn't want to surrender, you're just talking about something's that's utterly false. I'm glad you found someone to support your position, it's still revisionist bullshit.


Quote:
We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief of OSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that; "On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people."


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
1) I don't see a clear message from the rebels. I'm not even sure it's remotely clear who leads them.
2) BOTH sides are committing atrocities. Assad used chemical weapons. Rephrehensible. But if we were to remove him, we'd put more than likely just as bad people in charge, but more fragmented. Meaning most likely more war.
3) A measured (limited) response shows what? That we can blow the shit out of Syria? Anyone doubt that?


Pretty big leap to make...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigantes
2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

The Rebel are all fringe, most moderates like Assad. The volume is at least equal, the "rebels" have wiped out entire villages and car-bombed schools and playgrounds.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:50 AM   #324
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
The Rebel are all fringe, most moderates like Assad. The volume is at least equal, the "rebels" have wiped out entire villages and car-bombed schools and playgrounds.
not according to the washington post blog article. what you say doesn't compute, anyway.


- if something is "fringe," then by definition it can't be "all."

- how could most moderates possibly like assad? his mini-dynasty took power in a coup, away from the people's choice, and has one of the bloodiest human rights records around.

- you are conflating the actions of the rebels.

- how do you know what proportion of the atrocities weren't done by assad and then blamed on the rebels? it's a classic dictator ploy.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:10 AM   #325
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh the horror
So on the news they're interviewing some Joe Politician, and dude says "I don't see how this would be a threat to our national security"


So....involving yourself in a conflict that isn't your own, that is intertwined with various other factors....bombing them...you don't see how that could have consequences?


He may have been referring to Obama's claim that Assad using chemical weapons is a threat to our national security, which is something Obama claimed numerous times in his speech.


In that capacity, I have to agree. Assad using chemical weapons isn't a threat to our national security... but it is to Israel's. Seems fairly obvious that our interest in the situation is perpetuated by our alliance with Israel. The Jews have a lot of political power in the Country.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:18 AM   #326
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
not according to the washington post blog article. what you say doesn't compute, anyway.


- if something is "fringe," then by definition it can't be "all."

- how could most moderates possibly like assad? his mini-dynasty took power in a coup, away from the people's choice, and has one of the bloodiest human rights records around.

- you are conflating the actions of the rebels.

- how do you know what proportion of the atrocities weren't done by assad and then blamed on the rebels? it's a classic dictator ploy.

-WaPo, right. WaPo...

-All of (99.9%) the rebels are on the fringe of society, they are motivated by trying to establish a sunni regime.

-Bashar put a referendum to the people that allowed them to remove the part of the Syrian constitution stipulating the autocratic rule of the Ba'ath party (the Assad's) which they did. You do understand the rarity of a constitutionally enshrined autocrat to remove himself willingly right? I don't think it's ever happened. Most people understand the value of a pres. who is part of the Alawite minority. The Sunni's are the largest, with everyone else being a minority. The millennia old Christian villages rely on him.

-Yes I am. There is legitimate opposition, those who took up arms are not a part of this.

-Why would you think Assad would car-bomb schools? Why would he suicide bomb government buildings? Why would he behead Alawites? What would he gain? Why wouldn't he use missiles or tanks? Occam's Razor brother.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:40 AM   #327
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
-WaPo, right. WaPo...

-All of (99.9%) the rebels are on the fringe of society, they are motivated by trying to establish a sunni regime.

-Bashar put a referendum to the people that allowed them to remove the part of the Syrian constitution stipulating the autocratic rule of the Ba'ath party (the Assad's) which they did. You do understand the rarity of a constitutionally enshrined autocrat to remove himself willingly right? I don't think it's ever happened. Most people understand the value of a pres. who is part of the Alawite minority. The Sunni's are the largest, with everyone else being a minority. The millennia old Christian villages rely on him.

-Yes I am. There is legitimate opposition, those who took up arms are not a part of this.

-Why would you think Assad would car-bomb schools? Why would he suicide bomb government buildings? Why would he behead Alawites? What would he gain? Why wouldn't he use missiles or tanks? Occam's Razor brother.
- yes, washington post. and...? are you saying that article contained a radical version of the facts at odds with the overall media?

- okay. i don't know. maybe that's it.

- okay, i don't know about the referendum, but that still wouldn't erase the historic violence and abuse of power that regime has shown.

- okay, fair enough. but what i was originally referring to was the syrian people being mistreated, not the rebels specifically. i have no interest in UN intervention over a bunch of religious nutcase rebels. my only interest would be on behalf of innocents.

- to manipulate blame. as i said, it's an old ploy by dictators, so i wouldn't rule it out... out of hand. occam's razor is not something very useful in that case. better would be some combination of evidence, known motives, theories on execution.
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:23 AM   #328
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
- okay, fair enough. but what i was originally referring to was the syrian people being mistreated, not the rebels specifically. i have no interest in UN intervention over a bunch of religious nutcase rebels. my only interest would be on behalf of innocents.

- to manipulate blame. as i said, it's an old ploy by dictators, so i wouldn't rule it out... out of hand. occam's razor is not something very useful in that case. better would be some combination of evidence, known motives, theories on execution.

-If you want to protect civilians, a UN bombing raid on behalf of the al-Nusra Front isn't going to do that.

-Right, who is he manipulating? Western media doesn't report these suicide bombings and when they do they omit things like that it was a government building etc. Governments aren't capable of recruiting suicide bombers, terrorist groups are. Do you really think someone is going to commit suicide on behalf of Assad? And what does it accomplish? Assad is popular, he was popular three years ago. There isn't ANYTHNG for him to gain and there is so much to lose.

- The "rebels" on the other hand, have nothing to lose and so much to gain. Remember these are crazy guys, they believe you have to kill everyone who isn't a Muslim or isn't the right kind of Muslim. Last month they suicide bombed an air base near Alleppo, they now control the base, or was that Assad trying to manipulate blame?

You've seen them eat hearts, but now here's everyone favourite rebels beheading an infidel: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1372329728
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:46 AM   #329
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

@harold,
thanks for your views. i can't argue against those things because i just don't know either way right now.
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:51 AM   #330
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

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Originally Posted by gigantes
@harold,
thanks for your views. i can't argue against those things because i just don't know either way right now.

Sorry if I seem argumentative. It just happens when I communicate through a keyboard.
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