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Old 09-02-2013, 08:12 PM   #331
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleterious
funny article. lots of lies.
and you sure cleared them up with your helpful message.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
What i don't like about an intervention here is I don't see how it helps.
1) I don't see a clear message from the rebels. I'm not even sure it's remotely clear who leads them.
2) BOTH sides are committing atrocities. Assad used chemical weapons. Rephrehensible. But if we were to remove him, we'd put more than likely just as bad people in charge, but more fragmented. Meaning most likely more war.
3) A measured (limited) response shows what? That we can blow the shit out of Syria? Anyone doubt that?

Millitary action's purpose should be to accomplish an aim and prevent more conflict. This accomplishes nothing and extends the current conflict. if they wanted Assad out, they could have helped a long time ago, not now when he's entrenched again.

I say no go on Syria.
1) i don't see that it matters. the rebels most likely are a wild mix of people with all kinds of agendas and all kinds of situations who pretty much no longer want to be stomped on. many are just innocents caught in the crossfire with nothing to do but fight back.


2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

i totally agree with you that who knows what happens if assad goes down? this is our concern, dude.


3) i don't know. maybe you're right.


still, as many ways as a response might go wrong or be inadequate, if the UN votes for it, the UN votes for it. we have responsibility in these kinds of matters, don't we?
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:23 PM   #332
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
and you sure cleared them up with your helpful message.



1) i don't see that it matters. the rebels most likely are a wild mix of people with all kinds of agendas and all kinds of situations who pretty much no longer want to be stomped on. many are just innocents caught in the crossfire with nothing to do but fight back.


2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

i totally agree with you that who knows what happens if assad goes down? this is our concern, dude.


3) i don't know. maybe you're right.


still, as many ways as a response might go wrong or be inadequate, if the UN votes for it, the UN votes for it. we have responsibility in these kinds of matters, don't we?
I'd be more in line with a UN sponsored initative. I don't like the thought of us firing a bunch of cruise missles in to prove a point though.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:23 PM   #333
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
The people in charge didn't want to surrender, you're just talking about something's that's utterly false. I'm glad you found someone to support your position, it's still revisionist bullshit.


Quote:
We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief of OSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that; "On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people."


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
1) I don't see a clear message from the rebels. I'm not even sure it's remotely clear who leads them.
2) BOTH sides are committing atrocities. Assad used chemical weapons. Rephrehensible. But if we were to remove him, we'd put more than likely just as bad people in charge, but more fragmented. Meaning most likely more war.
3) A measured (limited) response shows what? That we can blow the shit out of Syria? Anyone doubt that?


Pretty big leap to make...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigantes
2) the the rebel's atrocities are more likely lesser in volume and only being perpetrated by their fringe. i'm not going to blame them all for what a few jackasses do. assad's side is a coordinated agenda, greater in volume, that pretty much created the situation in the first place AFAIK.

The Rebel are all fringe, most moderates like Assad. The volume is at least equal, the "rebels" have wiped out entire villages and car-bombed schools and playgrounds.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:50 PM   #334
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
The Rebel are all fringe, most moderates like Assad. The volume is at least equal, the "rebels" have wiped out entire villages and car-bombed schools and playgrounds.
not according to the washington post blog article. what you say doesn't compute, anyway.


- if something is "fringe," then by definition it can't be "all."

- how could most moderates possibly like assad? his mini-dynasty took power in a coup, away from the people's choice, and has one of the bloodiest human rights records around.

- you are conflating the actions of the rebels.

- how do you know what proportion of the atrocities weren't done by assad and then blamed on the rebels? it's a classic dictator ploy.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:10 AM   #335
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh the horror
So on the news they're interviewing some Joe Politician, and dude says "I don't see how this would be a threat to our national security"


So....involving yourself in a conflict that isn't your own, that is intertwined with various other factors....bombing them...you don't see how that could have consequences?


He may have been referring to Obama's claim that Assad using chemical weapons is a threat to our national security, which is something Obama claimed numerous times in his speech.


In that capacity, I have to agree. Assad using chemical weapons isn't a threat to our national security... but it is to Israel's. Seems fairly obvious that our interest in the situation is perpetuated by our alliance with Israel. The Jews have a lot of political power in the Country.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:18 AM   #336
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
not according to the washington post blog article. what you say doesn't compute, anyway.


- if something is "fringe," then by definition it can't be "all."

- how could most moderates possibly like assad? his mini-dynasty took power in a coup, away from the people's choice, and has one of the bloodiest human rights records around.

- you are conflating the actions of the rebels.

- how do you know what proportion of the atrocities weren't done by assad and then blamed on the rebels? it's a classic dictator ploy.

-WaPo, right. WaPo...

-All of (99.9%) the rebels are on the fringe of society, they are motivated by trying to establish a sunni regime.

-Bashar put a referendum to the people that allowed them to remove the part of the Syrian constitution stipulating the autocratic rule of the Ba'ath party (the Assad's) which they did. You do understand the rarity of a constitutionally enshrined autocrat to remove himself willingly right? I don't think it's ever happened. Most people understand the value of a pres. who is part of the Alawite minority. The Sunni's are the largest, with everyone else being a minority. The millennia old Christian villages rely on him.

-Yes I am. There is legitimate opposition, those who took up arms are not a part of this.

-Why would you think Assad would car-bomb schools? Why would he suicide bomb government buildings? Why would he behead Alawites? What would he gain? Why wouldn't he use missiles or tanks? Occam's Razor brother.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:40 AM   #337
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
-WaPo, right. WaPo...

-All of (99.9%) the rebels are on the fringe of society, they are motivated by trying to establish a sunni regime.

-Bashar put a referendum to the people that allowed them to remove the part of the Syrian constitution stipulating the autocratic rule of the Ba'ath party (the Assad's) which they did. You do understand the rarity of a constitutionally enshrined autocrat to remove himself willingly right? I don't think it's ever happened. Most people understand the value of a pres. who is part of the Alawite minority. The Sunni's are the largest, with everyone else being a minority. The millennia old Christian villages rely on him.

-Yes I am. There is legitimate opposition, those who took up arms are not a part of this.

-Why would you think Assad would car-bomb schools? Why would he suicide bomb government buildings? Why would he behead Alawites? What would he gain? Why wouldn't he use missiles or tanks? Occam's Razor brother.
- yes, washington post. and...? are you saying that article contained a radical version of the facts at odds with the overall media?

- okay. i don't know. maybe that's it.

- okay, i don't know about the referendum, but that still wouldn't erase the historic violence and abuse of power that regime has shown.

- okay, fair enough. but what i was originally referring to was the syrian people being mistreated, not the rebels specifically. i have no interest in UN intervention over a bunch of religious nutcase rebels. my only interest would be on behalf of innocents.

- to manipulate blame. as i said, it's an old ploy by dictators, so i wouldn't rule it out... out of hand. occam's razor is not something very useful in that case. better would be some combination of evidence, known motives, theories on execution.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:23 AM   #338
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
- okay, fair enough. but what i was originally referring to was the syrian people being mistreated, not the rebels specifically. i have no interest in UN intervention over a bunch of religious nutcase rebels. my only interest would be on behalf of innocents.

- to manipulate blame. as i said, it's an old ploy by dictators, so i wouldn't rule it out... out of hand. occam's razor is not something very useful in that case. better would be some combination of evidence, known motives, theories on execution.

-If you want to protect civilians, a UN bombing raid on behalf of the al-Nusra Front isn't going to do that.

-Right, who is he manipulating? Western media doesn't report these suicide bombings and when they do they omit things like that it was a government building etc. Governments aren't capable of recruiting suicide bombers, terrorist groups are. Do you really think someone is going to commit suicide on behalf of Assad? And what does it accomplish? Assad is popular, he was popular three years ago. There isn't ANYTHNG for him to gain and there is so much to lose.

- The "rebels" on the other hand, have nothing to lose and so much to gain. Remember these are crazy guys, they believe you have to kill everyone who isn't a Muslim or isn't the right kind of Muslim. Last month they suicide bombed an air base near Alleppo, they now control the base, or was that Assad trying to manipulate blame?

You've seen them eat hearts, but now here's everyone favourite rebels beheading an infidel: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1372329728
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:46 AM   #339
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

@harold,
thanks for your views. i can't argue against those things because i just don't know either way right now.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:51 AM   #340
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
@harold,
thanks for your views. i can't argue against those things because i just don't know either way right now.

Sorry if I seem argumentative. It just happens when I communicate through a keyboard.
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:46 AM   #341
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

oh, no worries, mate. the arguing is against the ideas themselves, and mostly it happens in my head, anyway. other ppl are most helpful in giving me new info, new ideas, etc. at least that’s the theory.

already involved in some long discussions elsewhere of GCC, buddhism, and trying to get through that neuroscience lecture dr. hee showed me. spare neurons all reserved at moment.
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:10 AM   #342
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

don´t you realize all these fukkers are just plain crazy.......animals with no brain......check out this shit

tank attacks :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJhO03sFXhc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67-fLCF3AY4

be sure to turn up the volume !........and feel free to search for the gassing of rabbits videos as well



.

Last edited by tomtucker : 09-03-2013 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:24 AM   #343
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh the horror
If they do want to do this strike, isn't waiting and waiting a bad move?

An article on how Obama came to his decision to go to Congress says this
Quote:
During one meeting, Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said something that left an impression on Mr. Obama: The timing of a strike didn't matter, officials said.

Gen. Dempsey's message to Mr. Obama was that whether the strikes were launched tomorrow, or a week from now, or a month from now, the military would be able to ensure the effectiveness of the operation, officials said.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:44 AM   #344
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
and you sure cleared them up with your helpful message.



1) i don't see that it matters. the rebels most likely are a wild mix of people with all kinds of agendas and all kinds of situations who pretty much no longer want to be stomped on. many are just innocents caught in the crossfire with nothing to do but fight back.



70% of Syria supports Assad. That is according to a NATO poll.
http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/...rts-and-minds/

No. Many of the rebels are not freedom loving innocents "caught in the crossfire" with no other choice but to fight against the evil empire.

The rebel coalition is made up of a coalition of many Syrian AND non Syrian groups, some are extremist, some are associated with and funded by Al Quaeda and some are all right. Ahmad Jarba is the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces leader. He is very close with the Saudi government. Also maybe this is unfair to assume, but I think that if the rebels ever hypothetically did come in to power, Jarba would not last long and there would be so much infighting and regime changes. Also only 30% of the population would want him in office anyways.
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:58 AM   #345
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Default Re: Breaking: US and Britain pledge to use force within two weeks in Syria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mUvHXM3IIc

Entertaining back and forth between Kerry and Rand Paul on Syria.

The ending is great

Last edited by KeylessEntry : 09-04-2013 at 04:06 AM.
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