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Old 09-16-2013, 03:23 AM   #511
Deuce Bigalow
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
It's not quite the same from what I know. It factors in things outside of direct fg%, 3pt%, and ft%...to get it's estimate. It is essentially an efficiency measure, but I think it has value outside of TS%.

Why? Because here are the two arguments presented;

1. Kobe has played more games so it's not a valid comparison. We then cut off Kobe's first 4 years in the playoffs and 2012. To give us 01-11. For Dirk we've been using 01-11 or -2-11...depending on the person talking...really not a big deal. So if you went 01-11 for both players. That is 158 games played for Kobe and 124 games played for Dirk. 34 game difference over 10 years is nothing...it does not matter.

So that argument is not even remotely valid.

2. The quality of defense faced. Which, again, I agree should be factored in. The difficulty is how much. Especially when the team strength of each player has been very different over the years.

And forget why you think that doesn't matter for a second on an in game basis. Think about it this way as I explained before. Take a look at Kobe in 2010 against the Thunder in round 1. He was hurt/struggling much of that series...after 5 games played in that series...he was averaging something around 21ppg on 50% TS. Then he got his knee drained and played a great game 6. But if he didn't have such a good TEAM...not just offense...he wouldn't have had that luxury. Not only would he have had to press in games 4 and 5 when he wasn't capable...so his numbers would be even worse, but here is the kicker:

If he's not playing on an elite team...he's losing that series playing like he did. If you think 23/4/5 on 51% TS (something like that) is consistently winning series on some of the teams Dirk has had...you are sorely mistaken. Hell, you just ragged on Dirk in 04...yet he put up 27/12/1 on 56%TS...his team lost in 5.


But extrapolate this to the ability of Kobe to do two things. Win a series like that more often because of his added help (to allow him to play more games) which then gives him the chance to put up great numbers while leading his team to the title. But if Kobe didn't have great help in 10 and played like that? He's going home in round 1 with averages of something around 23/4/5 51%TS.

While Kobe's series was of course better in 2010 compared to Dirk's 07 series...just think about it for a bit. Dirk put up 20/11/2 51% TS....give him a legit stacked team and the GOAT coach and he's getting out of that series...not only with a win, but with better numbers. And at least getting 12 or more games to the WCF to bump up his numbers against non nightmare opponents.

Team strength matters not only for individual games, but in the big picture of burden and ability to win some series when some players are off/hurt...whatever.

So it's just a huge double standard. Dirk plays better than Kobe in 04 vs 10 round 1 compared....yet Kobe gets to advance and Dirk doesn't. And then you come back and accuse Dirk of leading a stacked team to a loss. Sorry...stacked teams don't get bounced in 5 in round 1 when their best player puts up 26/12 on 56%TS. Stacked teams win a series in which their best player struggles at 23/4/5 51%TS while being hurt.

That is the difference.

Here are roughly the series averages in which Dirk lost a series;

01 - 24/9/1 52%TS
02 - 25/12/3 53% TS
03 - 25/12/2 55% TS (only 3 games)
04 - 27/12/1 56% TS
05 - 27/11/3 54% TS
06 - 23/11/3 53% TS
07 - 20/11/2 51% TS
08 - 27/12/4 59% TS
09 - 35/12/4 66% TS
10 - 27/8/3 64% TS
12 - 27/6/2 56% TS

And that of course isn't to say that Dirk hasn't won his fair share of games and series in which he didn't play great, but the margin of error here is just completely different. Just take 2010. Dirk puts up 27/8/3 on 64% TS and his team loses in round 1 in 6 games. Kobe puts up 23/4/5 on 51% TS and his team wins in 6 games....and allows Kobe to advance to put up much better numbers the rest of the way.

I just don't think you can ignore that difference when trying to bring context to all this stuff.
Games 4 and 5 were both 20+ blowouts (G4 -21, G5 +24). He only played 32 and 29 minutes and took a total of 19 shots combined. When does Kobe only take 9 and 10 FGA in games? Games where clearly either away from them or the game was won already.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:25 AM   #512
The-Legend-24
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

These nikkas still going.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:21 AM   #513
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

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These nikkas still going.
I know right. Is like obsession.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:04 AM   #514
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Whatever you say buddy

Game 2 loss SAS Offensive Rating 122.5
Game 3 loss SAS Offensive Rating 112.1
Game 4 loss SAS Offensive Rating 104.5
Game 5 loss SAS Offensive Rating 114.2


And you think Kobe's defense makes a noticeable difference? You like regular season data...take a look at the rapm defensive numbers for Kobe each year. Dude is a net negative on defense half the time. But now he's going to alter the outcome of a series with his defense while averaging 23/4/5 51% TS....LOL

And when you play shit inefficient offense like the Mavs did in 10 in that series outside of Dirk...you get shit on both ends. It's the way it works unless you have a stout defensive team...which the Mavs did not.

Teams are different. Mavs in 10 needed to beat people by scoring...they weren't a very good defensive team. Stop acting like they were shutting people down in the regular season or something. This is my exact point...

Come back to reality please.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:13 AM   #515
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

Kobe doesn't even know that any of you exist.
Dirk doesn't even know that any of you exist.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #516
Yao Ming's Foot
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
And you think Kobe's defense makes a noticeable difference? You like regular season data...take a look at the rapm defensive numbers for Kobe each year. Dude is a net negative on defense half the time. But now he's going to alter the outcome of a series with his defense while averaging 23/4/5 51% TS....LOL

And when you play shit inefficient offense like the Mavs did in 10 in that series outside of Dirk...you get shit on both ends. It's the way it works unless you have a stout defensive team...which the Mavs did not.

Teams are different. Mavs in 10 needed to beat people by scoring...they weren't a very good defensive team. Stop acting like they were shutting people down in the regular season or something. This is my exact point...

Come back to reality please.

Yeah I think Kobe's defense makes a noticable difference...

Quote:
KOBE BOTTLES UP WESTBROOK
After Game 4's humiliation, the assumption was the Lakers would come back tonight with a different look for the Thunder. They actually threw out a few, but the most significant was likely assigning Bryant to Westbrook. In Games 3 and 4, Westbrook averaged 22.5 points, five assists, eight boards and a seemingly immeasurable amount of havoc wrecked. Over the course of the series, Westbrook had success against all three of L.A.'s point guards, so Tuesday night, they tried a two.

Kobe picked up Westbrook, and his work was instrumental for the Lakers as they built their massive early lead. In the first quarter, OKC's PG was one-of-five from the floor with three turnovers. At halftime, Westbrook was two-for-eight (seven points) and sported an assist-t0-turnover ratio of four-to-five, thanks in large part to Bryant's work checking him.

Needless to say, a limited Westbrook limited Oklahoma City generally. OKC had only 11 field goals and 34 points at intermission, shooting 26.2 percent from the floor. Down 19, the game was basically over.

"When I came out of the team video (session) yesterday, he said I'd like to take Westbrook. I said ok," Phil Jackson said. Asked if he had second thoughts about the assignment, Jackson said he did. "It's a much higher activity level, playing the ball and having to play every play," Jackson noted. "There's no time off on defense, and some of the situations he's in off Durant or the things going on in the Thunder offense, a lot of times he's got a resting moment or two at the defensive end. This didn't give him any defensive rest."

Remember, Kobe is a guy fighting so many injuries for so much of the season they've actually had time to evolve. The problematic right index fracture at the tip of his finger, we were told Monday, is now an arthritic condition one knuckle down. He's admitted the balky right knee has given him problems thus far.

Still, he volunteered for Westbrook duty.

"I enjoy the challenge. I think he's been playing sensational. If we're going to be eliminated, I don't want to go into the summer thinking I could have done something about it. So I accepted the challenge," he said. "We've got to make some adjustments. Ron has been working extremely hard on Durant. Russell has just done such a great job of getting into the paint. I think I'm a pretty good defensive player myself, so I took the assignment."

PJ spoke about the inability for 24 to find moments of rest when marking a threat like Westbrook, but Tuesday his burden wasn't overwhelming at the other end, making it that much easier to focus on locking down. Bryant was fantastic offensively, orchestrating L.A.'s offense and piling up seven assists 29:17 of playing time. But he only took nine shots and wasn't forced to tax his body in some sort of Sisyphean offensive quest.

Jackson praised Westbrook's work on Bryant as the game went along, but indicated he'd likely run Kobe out there against him Friday night at Ford Center. This seems like quite a reasonable idea.

I believe in RAPM as an accurate measure of defensive impact as much as I believe in Magic Johnson being a more impactful defensive player than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:22 AM   #517
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Yeah I think Kobe's defense makes a noticable difference...



I believe in RAPM as an accurate measure of defensive impact as much as I believe in Magic Johnson being a more impactful defensive player than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s.

But you tout defensive rating all the time...yet Kobe's is only 1 point better than Dirk's for their playoff careers.

Hmmmmmm.

I mean...on your own stat alone you lose this. The Lakers defense that year was 4th in the league. The Mavs defense was 12th.

Do we really have to debate this now? You really can't just admit that Kobe had more help in 2010? That is really what this has come to. That we have to pretend that Dirk and Kobe had equal help?

So lets get this straight...the guy that puts up 27/8/3 on 64% TS with a 130 ortg and 105 drtg....somehow deserves blame.

Yet the guy that puts up 23/4/5 on 51% TS with a 99 ortg and 107 drtg...somehow won the series.

I want you to think about that for a second. You tout these defensive/offensive ratings all the time. Why are we ignoring them when it comes to the individual players?????? Dirk destroyed Kobe in offensive production...and actually found a way to best him on the metric you love to use to measure defense. And then you turn around and tell me the Mavs lost because of Dirk's defense? Absurd.

Stop acting like Kobe is prime KG/Duncan/Wallace back there on defense anchoring the paint. He's a guard that plays inconsistent defense that happens to be a solid man to man defender and average team defender.

Come back to reality please.

And to add to your problems. The only year from 01 through 13 that Dirk didn't have a better drtg than his team was in 12. Every other year Dirk either had the same or better drtg than his team. Kobe, on the other hand, had multiple years in which he had a worse drtg than his team.

And just so we are clear;

Regular season drtg;

Dirk 104
Kobe 105

Defensive win shares?

Dirk 50.9 in 1108 games played
Kobe 49.5 in 1239 games played


Playoffs drt

Dirk 107
Kobe 106

Defensive win shares?

Dirk 5.0 in 128 games played
Kobe 7.3 in 220 games played

Above win shares favor Dirk in case you can't do math.

Yep...lets continue to use a team defensive rating and ignore the individual metrics...while comparing individuals...ROFL

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 09-16-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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