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Old 10-19-2013, 06:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Funny you mention Dirk highlights. I found some of his highlights on this youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAClutchTime/videos

Out of all the player videos on that channel, Dirks was one of the most impressive. The guy is just simply unguardable.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Nothing fun about watching a guy play volleyball with his rebounds to pad his stats. I **** with Dirk highlights though. Dat unguardable release
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Thank you! Do his supporters realize he had a .352 FG% last year? That was even worse than Rubio.

He only played 18 games and more than half of those games his hand was broken.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
His career FG% is 45 and that's including that season.

That's still nothing to be proud of for a power forward.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

You guys missed op's agenda
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:14 PM   #21
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Kblaze I'm trying to figure who most-visually resembles the game of Bob Pettit today, you've seen some of him cause I know you made a mix about him a while back, what do you think?

I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game. He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great non-centers who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by pudman13
I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game. He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great non-centers who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.

Meh. Wasn't he one of the first (if not the first) guys to have a regular weight-training regimen? He also got a ton of offensive rebounds (in a couple of sources, he's called one of the GOATs in that regard) and by all accounts got a ton of baskets on putbacks, so he was pretty physical inside.

FWIW he was listed as a center pretty regularly during his first few years (6'9" barefoot, so he wasn't huge, but he wouldn't be one of the smallest centers in the league in any era), though Chuck Share when he came in played a lot at the pivot as well.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by pudman13
I've studied up on Pettit and he's one of those old-time players who doesn't translate that well to the modern game. He's not as far off as those set-shooters, or the guys with the running hook shots, but he's also nowhere near as athletic as someone like Nowitzki.

Are there are any modern day players who are/were really good rebounders without being bruisers? Great outside shooters who didn't drive or dribble much? What struck me when reading about Pettit is how he was aware of his own limitations. He couldn't handle the ball to save his life, which is a big reason he learned to get a shot off so quickly. This sounds weird, but a somewhat modern player who reminds me of him is Danny Ferry. Nowadays a guy like Pettit wouldn't be an all-around scorer. He'd probably end up being a 3-point specialist (don't get me started.) Donyell Marshall is another one who comes to mind (and is maybe a better comparison since he was a good rebounder.) I like to think that Pettit would be better than Ferry or Marshall, but unlike a lot of great non-centers who came a bit after him (West, Baylor, Robertson, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkens, etc...) I'm less likely to be able to make an argument that he would be a star today.
Uh, what exactly did you study?
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by fpliii
Meh. Wasn't he one of the first (if not the first) guys to have a regular weight-training regimen? He also got a ton of offensive rebounds (in a couple of sources, he's called one of the GOATs in that regard) and by all accounts got a ton of baskets on putbacks, so he was pretty physical inside.

FWIW he was listed as a center pretty regularly during his first few years (6'9" barefoot, so he wasn't huge, but he wouldn't be one of the smallest centers in the league in any era), though Chuck Share when he came in played a lot at the pivot as well.
The listing of him as a center is misinformation. He did not play center in the NBA, he immediately started off as a forward in the NBA because the coach knew he was too small to play center in the NBA (as a rookie, 6-8 and 1/4 inch tall w/o shoes and only 210lbs). He eventually bulked up to 245lbs and probably did split duties occasionally much later in his career, but out of the gates his coach told him to stay outside thus he learned to play as a jump shooting and driving power forward (he was a hook shooting center only in college - he also retired any use of his hook shot when Bill Russell came into the league because Bill Russell caught his hook shot out of the air). All these important details to his career should become more obvious to the masses when I release the Bob Pettit mix (still in progress).

Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 10-19-2013 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
The listing of him as a center is misinformation. He did not play center in the NBA, he immediately started off as a forward in the NBA because the coach knew he was too small to play center in the NBA (as a rookie, 6-8 and 1/4 inch tall w/o shoes and only 210lbs). He eventually bulked up to 245lbs and probably did split duties occasionally much later in his career, but out of the gates his coach told him to stay outside thus he learned to play as a jump shooting and driving power forward (he was a hook shooting center only in college - he also retired any use of his hook shot when Bill Russell came into the league because Bill Russell caught his hook shot out of the air). All these important details to his career should become more obvious to the masses when I release the Bob Pettit mix (still in progress).

Ah okay, thanks for the info. I'm just basing that on listings I've seen in old box scores and articles from dumping archives. I really want to pick up his autobiography, must be a great read.

As always, looking forward to more of your videos.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:45 PM   #26
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Uh, what exactly did you study?

I've read as many books about the 50s and 60s NBA as I could find and one thing that comes up again and again is that he wasn't very athletic and that he was so weak on the dribble that he did everything he could to avoid having to dribble more than a couple times on any play. The lack of athleticism can be compensated for, but I just don't see poor ball-handling skills translating to an all star in today's game, especially when the defenses play to keep people from getting the kind of position he always seemed to have for his mid-range shots. (I also think Jerry West would have had to develop a left hand to be a star in a later era---and maybe they both would have developed ball handing skills if they needed to, just as I believe any old time star would haveadapted to the conditioning or defenses of any other era.) If you've read my posts here you'll know that I'm one of the guys who continually defends the old time greats and believes they would have been stars in any era. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong here (especially since Russell names him as one of the best he ever played against), but unfortunately there's very little video of him beyond a few shooting highlights. I have to see full games of people to realy get a handle on their style nad their strengths/weaknesses. Unlike many of the others, I'm basing my comments here about 98% on hearsay from people who were there at the time. If you have arguments that contradict what I believe, I'd love to hear them.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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I've read as many books about the 50s and 60s NBA as I could find and one thing that comes up again and again is that he wasn't very athletic and that he was so weak on the dribble that he did everything he could to avoid having to dribble more than a couple times on any play. The lack of athleticism can be compensated for, but I just don't see poor ball-handling skills translating to an all star in today's game, especially when the defenses play to keep people from getting the kind of position he always seemed to have for his mid-range shots. (I also think Jerry West would have had to develop a left hand to be a star in a later era---and maybe they both would have developed ball handing skills if they needed to, just as I believe any old time star would haveadapted to the conditioning or defenses of any other era.) If you've read my posts here you'll know that I'm one of the guys who continually defends the old time greats and believes they would have been stars in any era. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong here (especially since Russell names him as one of the best he ever played against), but unfortunately there's very little video of him beyond a few shooting highlights. I have to see full games of people to realy get a handle on their style nad their strengths/weaknesses. Unlike many of the others, I'm basing my comments here about 98% on hearsay from people who were there at the time. If you have arguments that contradict what I believe, I'd love to hear them.
He definitely didn't dribble more than 2-3 times a possession so he couldn't dribble much but it's not like he was or would be getting stripped or forcing himself to do things he couldn't - his limited dribbling ability is true and is a product of him being brought up a traditional back-to-basket center through college and being told to play forward in the NBA. Today training early on emphasizes face up skills, and back to basket skills are a forgotten art where as then sort of the opposite was true, back to basket skill was drilled into the taller projects and face-up skills were sort of a 'learn it on your own free time' venture. He has touched on this stating he would work on his dribble if he played the modern game just like he has touched on the fact that he would have started weight programs at a younger age than he did in the NBA (he started at 23) and how he wouldn't play at 245 today, he'd instead play at about 260.

But as far as athleticism goes - how could anyone seriously think Dirk or any other typical European or cliche white guy in the NBA is 'way more athletic' than Bob Pettit. His athleticism is... well, pretty much on par with any typical big NBA-level white guys. It's still NBA level, he still was fluid and co-ordinated with great touch and it shows on his drives to the hoop, he also had strength and could also absorb contact well and he knew how to really stretch out and make the best of his limited dribbling. I just don't understand how people can jump to a conclusion about someones comparative athleticism from reading a book.

*EDIT* btw, a dominant modern player just came to mind who dribbles as few times per possession as Bob Pettit... Tim Duncan also doesn't dribble more than 2-3 times a possession. Yet he's still a dominant figure in this era. If you watch Duncan dribble he dribbles very few times but can cover a lot of ground each dribble and stretch himself to the hoop with finesse to cover a lot of ground with few dribbles. Pettit's floor game in that respect, looks very similar watching film. Duncan is also a traditional 5 who was told to play the 4.

Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 10-19-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:55 PM   #28
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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That's still nothing to be proud of for a power forward.
His career shooting efficiency is about the same as Duncan's, and Garnett's, slightly lower than Pau's. He just shoots more 3s.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
how could anyone seriously think Dirk or any other typical European or cliche white guy in the NBA is 'way more athletic' than Bob Pettit.

Dirk seems very quick to me, but of course there's something about the nautre of old-time video that makes people look slower than they were, so Pettit might have been quicker than I think. I think that's one reason people don't appreciate Baylor like they should, and it's why 70s Havlicek appears on film to be a better player than 60s Havlicek (when, of course, he's basically the same, just in a slightly differentrole.) Again, I haven't seen as much video of Pettit as I'd like. There definitely is something to "know your limitations," i.e. if he's not a great dribbler he figures out what else he needs to do. Not sure about the Duncan comparisons--Duncan's an inside player and doesn't rely as much on the outside shot, and also is a very good passer and shot blocker, and, of course, we have no block data from that era so who knows about that. But yes, Duncan rarely dribbles and is an expert at positioning himself.

Another thing in Pettit's favor is that he was still playing at an all-star level in '63-'64 and in fact had an improved FG% as his career went along, which to me indicates a high basektball IQ and an ability to adapt.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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If so, what makes them impressive? Dirk's fade away? Kevin Love's jump shot?

Dirk ability to make difficult shot like its easy >>>>
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