Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Dallas Mavericks Forum

Dallas Mavericks Forum Dallas Mavericks message board - mavs message board - dallas mavericks fan forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #46
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeGOAT
Lmao as if Love is on the same level as Nowitzki

Love is currently smashing it home on Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond like they're DII college players. ISH is completely full of baloney on Kevin Love.

Agree about levels with Nowitski but it is not due to talent levels it is purely due to intensity.
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:15 PM   #47
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Love is currently smashing it home on Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond like they're DII college players. ISH is completely full of baloney on Kevin Love.

Agree about levels with Nowitski but it is not due to talent levels it is purely due to intensity.
add Josh Smith to that. J Smooth can't even guard Love at all, none of these guys can dream of stopping the guy inside.
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:19 PM   #48
pudman13
Dick Van Arsdale
 
pudman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 304
pudman13 has decent reputation
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
add Josh Smith to that. J Smooth can't even guard Love at all, none of these guys can dream of stopping the guy inside.

Yet he camps out and chucks up threes.

This is a different discussion, but it's yet another reason I don't like the 3-pointer. I'd love to have a serious (i.e. not a bunch of name-calling ) discussion with people old enough to have watched a lot of NBA before the 3 was added, or at least in the early days of it when teams only shot it a couple times a game, about the various merits of the game with or without it. It's not as simple as "it spaces the game out." Ther are a lot of negatives that people don't understand unless they've seen a lot of games without it, ad now that everyone playing has grown up with it, it's not imaginable that anyone ever again will think about the game and its strategy the way they used to.
pudman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:41 PM   #49
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pudman13
Yet he camps out and chucks up threes.

This is a different discussion, but it's yet another reason I don't like the 3-pointer. I'd love to have a serious (i.e. not a bunch of name-calling ) discussion with people old enough to have watched a lot of NBA before the 3 was added, or at least in the early days of it when teams only shot it a couple times a game, about the various merits of the game with or without it. It's not as simple as "it spaces the game out." Ther are a lot of negatives that people don't understand unless they've seen a lot of games without it, ad now that everyone playing has grown up with it, it's not imaginable that anyone ever again will think about the game and its strategy the way they used to.

Worthy of it's own thread bro.
Yeah the game changed a lot but it was really, to me, a long time before the change happened..... and it really just went in a big circle. I believe statistical studies played a big role.

But that said, a huge reason FG% looks low in the '60s and '70s stat sheets is those guys were bombing a lot of shots from down town too. Pre-three those shots were often last gasp before the 24 clock ran out.

Nobody strategied plays where a guy would take literally the worst possible shot in basketball... the 25 footer.... but with guys like Chamberlain, Thurmond and Russell in the league many many times that was the only shot there was. It was the last shot if a play broke down.
People who bash old films ('50s early '60s esp.) for the slow looking set shooters truly don't get it at all --- those guys were inventing the spot up shooter concept.
Looked at within context of the 3 line, there's very very little difference between Ray Allen or Mike Miller or Steph Curry standing in a spot.... and Bill Sharman or Wali Jones or Paul Arizin standing in a spot.
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:48 PM   #50
pudman13
Dick Van Arsdale
 
pudman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 304
pudman13 has decent reputation
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Looked at within context of the 3 line, there's very very little difference between Ray Allen or Mike Miller or Steph Curry standing in a spot.... and Bill Sharman or Wali Jones or Paul Arizin standing in a spot.

Good point about it being a big circle. Every book I read about the 50s (or earlier) talks about how during the set-shootiung era people would pass the ball around and eventually someone would take a 30-footer.
pudman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:58 PM   #51
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pudman13
Good point about it being a big circle. Every book I read about the 50s (or earlier) talks about how during the set-shootiung era people would pass the ball around and eventually someone would take a 30-footer.
Curry is a set shooter, so is Rubio, so are a lot of guys. Ray Allen is one of the greats not just at 3 ball either, but if you study his shot a lot of times he's jumping to add power as you can clearly see because he releases while he is still on the way up
There've been other circle-backs in the NBA - Showtime Lakers & '80s Celtics were enormous throwback to '60s pace of basketball - the kind Riles played, the kind KC played. Piston thuggery was like the Nationals before they moved to Philly or like the early Bulls squads with Jerry Sloan & Van Lier & Bob Love.
Shaq Lakers ran the triangle........ same offense the great '60s Sixers used to such devastating effect & which Phil Jackson watched from the Knicks bench.... but which sat idle until another elite center of enormous strength and passing skills showed up
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 10:59 PM   #52
Locked_Up_Tonight
National High School Star
 
Locked_Up_Tonight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,190
Locked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.
Locked_Up_Tonight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:05 PM   #53
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.
today that is true - goes right to the heart of the whole 3 ball discussion. Before the 3 line, the mid-range shot was always the ideal (if the 4 or 5 couldn't get the ball down low). That is the whole statistical thing I was talking about earlier
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:06 PM   #54
CavaliersFTW
5-time NBA All-Star
 
CavaliersFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,364
CavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.
It looks that way right now because:

A. the 3 point shot makes it more difficult for players to justify practicing/taking mid-range shots. Old school guys like Larry Bird tell players he never practiced the 3 point shot ever (which is true, he never did - only mid range shots) and they look at him cross eyed like he's crazy.

B. Because of A., hardly anyone in the league today has developed a competent mid-range game. If your a 'shooter' today it means you camp out on the 3 point line, if your a slasher it means you finish at the rim. So that's all they practice and drill.

Anything can become the worst shot in basketball if it is never practiced, taught, or emphasized anymore. Today most players shoot in the mid-range only when denied the 3 point shot and get blocked from a drive so some ugly thing is a jacked up in desperation. 30+ years ago however, a 3 was more the 'desperation' shot and everyone's mid-range game was highly polished.

Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 10-24-2013 at 11:08 PM.
CavaliersFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:12 PM   #55
pudman13
Dick Van Arsdale
 
pudman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 304
pudman13 has decent reputation
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

The midrange shot is the greatest lost art in the game. You'd think modern players would understand what a big part of Jordan's game it was, but sometimes it seems as if people only practice dunks and 25-footers.

What I wonder is if (and how) the game will change the next time a truly great big man shows up in the NBA...another Wilt, or Russell, or Kareem, or Moses Malone, or Shaq, for that matter.
pudman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:19 PM   #56
pudman13
Dick Van Arsdale
 
pudman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 304
pudman13 has decent reputation
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
But that said, a huge reason FG% looks low in the '60s and '70s stat sheets is those guys were bombing a lot of shots from down town too. Pre-three those shots were often last gasp before the 24 clock ran out.

What really strikes me about some of the stars of that time is how good they were at getting open and taking short jumpers. Havlicek, who of course is famous for outrunning everyone, must have scored half of his points on 12-footers. Watch any of his games and you'll see him get open on the baseline over and over again. Have defensive schemes changed so much that this would be impossible today, or has the art of moving without the ball disappeared (or, more likely, changed to getting open behind the 3-point line?)
pudman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:23 PM   #57
Locked_Up_Tonight
National High School Star
 
Locked_Up_Tonight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,190
Locked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation hereLocked_Up_Tonight has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.
Locked_Up_Tonight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:24 PM   #58
pudman13
Dick Van Arsdale
 
pudman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 304
pudman13 has decent reputation
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW

Anything can become the worst shot in basketball if it is never practiced, taught, or emphasized anymore. Today most players shoot in the mid-range only when denied the 3 point shot and get blocked from a drive so some ugly thing is a jacked up in desperation.

The result is that odd stat where there are a bunch of players who have a higher 3-point FG% than 2-point FG%.

Back to the original point of this thread--you know who has probably the best midrange in the game? Dirk.
pudman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:26 PM   #59
CavaliersFTW
5-time NBA All-Star
 
CavaliersFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,364
CavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableCavaliersFTW is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pudman13
The midrange shot is the greatest lost art in the game. You'd think modern players would understand what a big part of Jordan's game it was, but sometimes it seems as if people only practice dunks and 25-footers.

What I wonder is if (and how) the game will change the next time a truly great big man shows up in the NBA...another Wilt, or Russell, or Kareem, or Moses Malone, or Shaq, for that matter.
I guarantee you ESPN will treat it as if the things that that big man does is 'revolutionary' and 'new' (and better) than the previous historic big men. They will rewrite history and say things like 'well all Shaq ever did was dunk / no competition' 'Kareem was just taller than everyone else' 'Hakeem had skill but couldn't _____ (some arbitrary thing this 'new' center does well that makes him unique) 'Wilt played in a weak era' etc. Guys like Robinson, Reed, etc won't even be mentioned in the future. If a new dominant center comes along he and whatever skillset or gifts he has that helps him be dominant will be presented as if it is the most special thing the world has ever seen and as if no big man of the past could or used to do it or if they did they 'didn't do it as well' - which will all be hogwash but hey they gotta sell the new Ford not the old Ford. But trust me, he'll be praised like a god and the past centers abilities will be forgotten or dismissed.

This happened with Shaq btw. The famous 'ARE U SERIOUS THAT'S A 7 FOOTER!' (as he runs up court on the break - as if that had never been done before). The hype machines will know no bounds if a new force like that enters the league.
CavaliersFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 11:27 PM   #60
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,989
La Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation hereLa Frescobaldi has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pudman13
What really strikes me about some of the stars of that time is how good they were at getting open and taking short jumpers. Havlicek, who of course is famous for outrunning everyone, must have scored half of his points on 12-footers. Watch any of his games and you'll see him get open on the baseline over and over again. Have defensive schemes changed so much that this would be impossible today, or has the art of moving without the ball disappeared (or, more likely, changed to getting open behind the 3-point line?)
Hondo is not a good choice to talk about because like others of his ilk - Bird, Dirk, yeah to the point of the thread, maybe Kevin Love (dunno yet, I don't remember too many power forwards right now that could do everything offensively at that dude's level) Anthony, Bernard King, McAdoo - he was completely unstoppable. We are talking about one of the true greats in Havlicek and lots of rules, theories, or whatever you want to call it.... just don't apply.
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:05 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy