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Old 10-24-2013, 10:28 PM   #61
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.
But that is exactly the point. 3 ball has changed basketball at its fundamental core.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
But trust me, he'll be praised like a god and the past centers abilities will be forgotten or dismissed.

Remember that game two years ago when Bynum got 30 rebounds and everyone acted like he could become the greatest player ever? Moses Malone played like that every single night. Heck, smaller guys like Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld played like that too.

Another skill nobody is teaching these days: footwork. I wonder how Hakeem or McHale would look today.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:34 PM   #63
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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But that is exactly the point. 3 ball has changed basketball at its fundamental core.

You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range. Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... doesn't mean it is a wise shot.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Moses Malone played like that every single night.

Of course half of those were his own missed layups padding his stats. He admitted as much that he would blow easy opportunities just to get credited for another rebound.......
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:37 PM   #65
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by pudman13
Remember that game two years ago when Bynum got 30 rebounds and everyone acted like he could become the greatest player ever? Moses Malone played like that every single night. Heck, smaller guys like Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld played like that too.

Another skill nobody is teaching these days: footwork. I wonder how Hakeem or McHale would look today.

gotta disagree now. Nikola Pekovic footwork is just flat astonishing, not just for a guy that size but anybody. Tim Duncan entire career has been nothing short of majestic in that exact area. Watch Chris Kaman or Lopez or Al Jefferson a little closer. LaMarcus Aldridge has times where he's nothing short of transcendent. Chris Bosh needs more credit. No, footwork is blistering great in today's NBA.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:38 PM   #66
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.
You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players. Yes, it makes less sense to take a mid-range shot today because of the 3 point shot as I already acknowledged but no, it wouldn't be the worst shot in basketball if it were developed and shot as accurately as it used to be.

There is a noticeable difference in the accuracy and fine tuning of players mid-range shooting abilities from say, the late 1980's to prior compared to players today. Back then, players had 'spots' (that they practiced religiously and wanted to get to during a game) that were in the mid range that if allowed to get to the J was automatic. Today, the mid-range is treated as no man's land. Defenses will (as you said) leave someone wide open in mid-range and they'll brick it. Not many players have a touch in the mid-range today, if they did, it wouldn't be the 'worst shot in basketball'
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:40 PM   #67
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range. Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... doesn't mean it is a wise shot.
all those other rules are from the '50s though. I don't know a league that didn't have all of those, except the zone is legal now... so I can't compare. No frame of reference on those.
Dirk is Dirk. Like I was saying about Hondo on the other - if it's Dirk, it's wise.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:41 PM   #68
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range. Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... doesn't mean it is a wise shot.
Got a title against the 'big 3', has had an incredible HOF-caliber career and is going to be a lock as a 75th anniversary player from taking those 'unwise' shots. Thus, perhaps they aren't so unwise?

Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 10-24-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:46 PM   #69
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
No, footwork is blistering great in today's NBA.

I'll defer to you on this one...now that I've ditched cable I don't watch as much NBA as I did a few years back. It does seem odd to me though that we have so few centers among the league scoring leaders.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:49 PM   #70
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players. Yes, it makes less sense to take a mid-range shot today because of the 3 point shot as I already acknowledged but no, it wouldn't be the worst shot in basketball if it were developed and shot as accurately as it used to be.

They would steamroll because of the talent disparity, not because of the mid range game. Take DJ/McHale (or Parrish) off the team.... and the 86 Celtics would not steamroll.

And yes it would still be the worst shot in basketball. As long as the layup is still allowed and the 3 point shot exists, the midrange will be the worst shot in basketball.

Quote:
all those other rules are from the '50s though. I don't know a league that didn't have all of those, except the zone is legal now, so I can't compare. No frame of reference on those.
Dirk is Dirk. Like I was saying about Hondo on the other - if it's Dirk, it's wise.

Just throwing out some. Others include handchecking, 5 second rule, interpretation of traveling/paming etc.....
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #71
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by pudman13
I'll defer to you on this one...now that I've ditched cable I don't watch as much NBA as I did a few years back. It does seem odd to me though that we have so few centers among the league scoring leaders.
Chuckin' up 3s, man
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:53 PM   #72
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Got a title against the 'big 3', has had an incredible HOF-caliber career and is going to be a lock as a 75th anniversary player from taking those 'unwise' shots. Thus, perhaps they aren't so unwise?

Can't make a generalization based on one player. Dirk has made a living on the worst shot in basketball. But he is one of the exceptions to the rule regarding the shot. The skyhook was a remarkable shot for one player in history. Not a good shot either for most players.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #73
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players.
Give me a break.

Put Ray Allen in a wide open gym, no defenders. This is what his percentages will probably look like.

4 ft (restricted arc): 99%
15 ft (free throw line): 90%
20 ft: 65%
25 ft: 50%
30 ft: 40%
Etc.

So yes, a mid range jump shot is less efficient than a shot a few feet further that nets you an extra point.

Don't be silly.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:52 PM   #74
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Default Re: Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

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Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
They would steamroll because of the talent disparity, not because of the mid range game. Take DJ/McHale (or Parrish) off the team.... and the 86 Celtics would not steamroll.

And yes it would still be the worst shot in basketball. As long as the layup is still allowed and the 3 point shot exists, the midrange will be the worst shot in basketball.



Just throwing out some. Others include handchecking, 5 second rule, interpretation of traveling/paming etc.....
I would suggest that even handchecking being taken away from the game, with all that has meant as far as horrific wide-open, slashing & driving... has not had nearly as much impact as the 3.

Palming went away around the time of Magic Johnson and well and truly dead & gone forever I hope. It's far better for the game to get have that flexibility on the dribble instead of that drab, hand-on-top-or-whistle that we used to see in the '60s and '70s. It was positively a hindrance & people today think those guys were 'unathletic' because it looks so strange to a modern (i.e., young) eye.
There again though.... a relatively minor detail compared bringing in the old ABA's 3 point line.
Strange that it took so long for the league to really exploit it though. Kiki Vandeweghe understood it clear back in the beginning of the rule and just tore everybody up, to this day the Kiki step is one of the deadliest moves around!!
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