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Old 02-14-2014, 10:32 AM   #226
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Really interesting insight from a poster on IMDB...
When I tuned into the first episode of True Detective I was expecting a rather run of the mill cop-serial killer chase show. Nothing in the first episode convinced me I was wrong, don't get me wrong, I liked the premiere, it just didn't seem anything new that I hadn't seen before. Boy was I wrong. There was a huge clue, so discrete that I dismissed it as swiftly as the characters in the show - the green spaghetti monster.

Now, most people still are probably in the dark about what this show is really about, but I just happen to be a huge H.P. Lovecraft fan and the second Rust opened that notebook and I saw the words King in Yellow and Carcosa it all made sense. For those who don't know, H.P. Lovecraft was a horror writer in the 1920's who created a mythology based around the assumption that we are all ignorant of the true dark nature of the world we live in, a nature where there are ancient and horrible creatures lurking in the shadows and with knowledge of the truth comes madness. His most well known character is Cthulhu. Over the years Lovecraft's writings have been blended with other similar writers and all the stories together are commonly referred to as the Cthulhu mythos or the Lovecraft mythos.

In many of the stories the plots are similar to True Detective - the characters begin investigating something that on the surface appears mundane only to discover that the truth is much darker and more abstract. Themes often deal with dread, insanity, etc. Given the clues of the spaghetti monster, the King in Yellow, and Carcosa it's now plain that this is a Lovecraft mythos show - the question now is how deep into the mythology will the writers delve? Is this still the work of one deranged serial killer? Was the girl a victim of a sinister cult of the Elder God Hastur? Will we actually see mythos creatures like Star Spawn and Shoggoths?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/.../224933714?p=1
I'm not at all familiar with H.P. Lovecraft's work. Only thing I know about Cthulhu is that one South Park episode

But Cohle has mentioned several times that this is part of the killer's fantasies finally manifesting itself in the physical world.

I stopped reading the thread here, because I haven't seen the fourth episode yet and I don't want it spoiled, but this post was really interesting. I used to be a huge Lovecraft fan as a teenager, and the part when MM was reading the diary in the car was really interesting. The spaghetti monster and the yellow king didn't ring a bell, but Carcosa certainly did. I apologize if it's been brought later on in this thread, but there's a Lovecraft story called "an inhabitant of Carcosa" with that shares certain similarities with the spirit of the show so far. As per wikipedia:

Quote:
A man from the city of Carcosa, contemplating the words of the philosopher "Hali" concerning the nature of death, wanders through an unfamiliar wilderness. He knows not how he came there, but recalls that he was sick in bed. He worries that he has wandered out of doors in a state of insensibility. He calms himself as he surveys his surroundings. He is aware that it is cold, though he does not exactly feel cold. He comes across a lynx, an owl, and a strange man dressed in skins and carrying a torch. For the first time, the man becomes aware that it must be night, though he can see as clear as day. Exploring further, he discovers a copse that was evidently a graveyard of several centuries past. Looking at the stones that once marked graves, he sees his name, the date of his birth, and the date of his death. He then realizes that he is dead, and is amidst the ruins of the "ancient and famous city of Carcosa." A footnote at the end of the story states, "Such are the facts imparted to the medium Bayrolles by the spirit Hoseib Alar Robardin."

Just my two cents.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:27 AM   #227
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster
Great observation and very interesting theory.
To me it would have seem natural for Cohl to ask about the newly found girls background and perhaps name when shown the photos, but if I remember right there was none of that.

Edit: Just went back and watched, Cohl didn't ask anything about the girl, only said it looked a lot like 95.
Another thing with that scene is that in the 95 timeline there's mentioning of the satanic cult like you mention,
but here Cohl says "how can it be him if we caught him in 95?", not "they" but very specific a single male.
That could mean a few different things because there seems to be some sarcasm in his voice.

Lastly, if that girl hanging from the bridge is really Harts daughter those two interviewers are really dismissive in their behavior considering they'd have to tell him later on that his daughter was killed.
Also wouldn't there be some sort of legal obligation for them to tell him, next of kind or sorts?


I totally agree with you about the Sarcasm in Rust Cohl's voice when he says something to the affect "how could it be the same guy if we got him in 95". I also think there's something to the fact that they don't use Ladeau's name when referencing "the guy", and makes me think Ladeau is just another avenue they chase.
And both Rust and Marty ask the investigators if they just want them to get to "Dora Lang ... Reggie Ladeau ... the kids in the forest". The kids in the forest thing we really haven't been exposed to at all, so whatever cult like activity they're about to bump into is still to come. My guess is that Rust wasn't as happy with the conclusion that came to this case as Marty probably was. That would explain the sarcasm in his voice, and he's seeming lack of shock that it's happened again.

I also agree with your concerns about Marty's treatment by the investigators if that is in fact his daughter. The only things I can think to justify it is that maybe she hasn't been identified yet, which would be possible if she'd gone as far off the grid as I theorize she would've been, although still pretty unlikely. Or secondly, perhaps they know who she is and they're working Marty as a potential suspect still, so they wouldn't be obliged to tell him just yet. If that were in fact his daughter, given her condition, both Rust and Marty would be the first suspects.

Either way I'm still pretty confident that Gov's Church program is tied in somewhere. It's too weird a coincidence to introduce the fact that the Gov's brother is a concerned famous evangelical preacher if it doesn't tie in, and it's been brought up more times than it needs to be based on it's current impact on the story.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:35 AM   #228
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

In retrospect, there may be some connection between the cop's smart alec suspect drawing of the spaghetti monster, and the drawing Marty's daughter does where felt the male character was wearing a mask.

I read some Lovecraft back in the day, and only a few months back bought his whole works on my Nook but haven't read them. I don't see this going that supernatural. I buy the cult group being obsessed with those stories, but not that those stories wind up being true.

I would like to check out some the writers novels too. Apparently he's obsessed with that southern Texas / Louisiana Bayou part of the US.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #229
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Okay so I'm just going to say this even though I know I am the only one that feels this way. I actually found the end of episode 4 to be an eye-roller. He walks into a biker bar and throws a freakin kilo of coke at someone like it isn't shit asking for a huge drug deals right off the bat and is suddenly thrown into a drug house robbery on the spot without any planning or know of the situation? I mean, come on. It was shot beautifully, and the overall feel was awesome, but the situation in general was very hokey to me. And then on top of that he just punches the biker and suddenly he can grab the biker by the shoulder and just lead him where ever he wants?

someone in this thread mentioned GTA, and you know what, that is EXACTLY what it felt like, suddenly the show turned into a GTA Level. It really deviated from what the show is about IMO.

all that said, love this show and can't f'n wait for the next episode...
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:22 PM   #230
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Okay so I'm just going to say this even though I know I am the only one that feels this way. I actually found the end of episode 4 to be an eye-roller. He walks into a biker bar and throws a freakin kilo of coke at someone like it isn't shit asking for a huge drug deals right off the bat and is suddenly thrown into a drug house robbery on the spot without any planning or know of the situation? I mean, come on. It was shot beautifully, and the overall feel was awesome, but the situation in general was very hokey to me. And then on top of that he just punches the biker and suddenly he can grab the biker by the shoulder and just lead him where ever he wants?

someone in this thread mentioned GTA, and you know what, that is EXACTLY what it felt like, suddenly the show turned into a GTA Level. It really deviated from what the show is about IMO.

all that said, love this show and can't f'n wait for the next episode...


I was comfortable with the behavior based on the established background of knowing the guy from his Undercover days. And was even willing to accept the acceptance of the mission based on the drug use and the acknowledgement of operating "off book". It was convenient however that Ginger's hangout was accessible from the locked up club back yard via airboat.

But after rewatching I too was confused about his ability to lead him out of the projects and when Ginger decided he wasn't who he thought. When he hops the fence Ginger scampers off then comes back for some reason.


I'm already wondering how following seasons will go. I understand the writer Pizzoloto is permanently attached, which even though I've enjoyed this thoroughly, disappoints me a bit. I'd love to see this treated as a rotating auteur thing, where we get a new writer and director every season and let them bring a crime story to life, so we got totally different tones every year.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:26 PM   #231
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Another thing I'm not positive on, we know the current investagators have doubts about Rust because of his story falling apart where he takes time off to visit his dieing father suffering from Luekemia in Alaska. I found it suspect as well. For some reason I didn't even associate the time off he took with the period he was operating "off book" on the case, as they said.

And because of the way the story has been narrated to the current investegators, I wasn't sure how they didn't know about it, because I sort of feel like anything they show is being told to those guys, but I guess not. Marty and Rust still have some secrets to keep between themselves I guess.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #232
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
I was comfortable with the behavior based on the established background of knowing the guy from his Undercover days. And was even willing to accept the acceptance of the mission based on the drug use and the acknowledgement of operating "off book". It was convenient however that Ginger's hangout was accessible from the locked up club back yard via airboat.

But after rewatching I too was confused about his ability to lead him out of the projects and when Ginger decided he wasn't who he thought. When he hops the fence Ginger scampers off then comes back for some reason.


I'm already wondering how following seasons will go. I understand the writer Pizzoloto is permanently attached, which even though I've enjoyed this thoroughly, disappoints me a bit. I'd love to see this treated as a rotating auteur thing, where we get a new writer and director every season and let them bring a crime story to life, so we got totally different tones every year.
it was all way way way too fast IMO, even with those things in mind...no one just randomly hops into robberies like that on a moment's notice, and no one throws coke around like that either, that was still thousands $$$ in street value...the "here you go I got mountains where that shit came from" line made me facepalm a little...

it didn't kill the show for me or anything, I'm just not head over heals for that scene like everyone else is...out of place IMO
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:43 PM   #233
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

I hope we get to know more about Rust during his undercover, redacted records, period. That would possibly make things add up a bit more.

And more than that it would probably make great TV.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:48 PM   #234
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Okay so I'm just going to say this even though I know I am the only one that feels this way. I actually found the end of episode 4 to be an eye-roller. He walks into a biker bar and throws a freakin kilo of coke at someone like it isn't shit asking for a huge drug deals right off the bat and is suddenly thrown into a drug house robbery on the spot without any planning or know of the situation? I mean, come on. It was shot beautifully, and the overall feel was awesome, but the situation in general was very hokey to me. And then on top of that he just punches the biker and suddenly he can grab the biker by the shoulder and just lead him where ever he wants?

someone in this thread mentioned GTA, and you know what, that is EXACTLY what it felt like, suddenly the show turned into a GTA Level. It really deviated from what the show is about IMO.

all that said, love this show and can't f'n wait for the next episode...


You're not the only one. Other things which bothered me were when he was attacked by those two black men when one tried to fist fight him and another one had a bat. When show specifically shows everyone heavily armed with machine guns and everything he runs into those two? And the guy with a bat even lets him get up once he hits him in the back? I would rather see someone shooting at Rust and Rust shooting back, hell even killing someone if necessary, it would look much more real for that particular situation when everyone's going crazy shooting left and right. And that scene when Rust elbowed both guys in the back looked like a fighting scene from a 40 years old movie

Having said that, I'm hooked and can't wait for another episode
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:52 PM   #235
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

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Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
So I left work early yesterday due to increasing snowfall, got home, shovelled, built a fire, and rewatched all four episodes.

Not that there's much here that's like The Wire, but one thing that is is that they soak you in the culture, and I think I missed some things based mainly on fighting through dialogue and stuff the first time through.

I do now believe that the ministry has something to do with the case. It's mentioned on several occasions where it doesn't really need to be. Eli from Boardwalk Empire, his preacher character mentions quickly that he's been preaching for over 20 years, and started by studying along side Rev. Tuttle. That reference slipped by me the first time, as it sounds like just a character filling in background, but Tuttle is the Governor who's brother is the evangilical preacher that comes to reinforce the importance of the case.

When they approach the guy mowing the lawn at the abondoned school, Hart says to Cohl quickly that it belongs to the ministry. That one was odd to me because that entire scene is otherwise not necessary. Cohl has a go nowhere conversation with a guy who knows nothing on a piece of property that reveals nothing. While it's happening Hart gets the hit on Ladeau being cellmates with Dora Lang's husband Charlie for a short stretch in prison before skipping out on parole. And off they go chasing after Ladeau.

I've heard so many theories about the grandfather that I watched the scene with him pretty carefully, and I just don't see anything directly. But I do have a possible tie in. He clearly has money. And Charlie Lang's description of the cult via Ladeau is that they're well off and ritualistically rape and kill young girls. "There's some good killin' down there." is a particularly chilling line. But I don't get the sense he's that well off.

I do firmly believe that Hart's daughter is tied in, and has been getting indoctrinated somewhere along the way since she was a kid. The doll stuff, and the school pictures are enough to convince me. I found it particularly chilling that in the last school pic they fixate on, the guy groping the woman appears clearly to be masked. Hart's asking how she even knows about this stuff already is telling. And if you wanted to build a case against the grandfather, it would probably start with him being most able to indoctrinate the daughter, along with the fact that he was so eager to push Hart away from them as soon as possible. Absolutely no intent on reconcilliation, calls him an asshole and says his daughter can do better, and admits to not always seeing eye to eye. His obsession about "kids today", may tie into a religious schema that would be tied to the cult, and sacrificing these "lost children" types may be part of his interest in there. I also think something could be read into Maggie's response to her husband's question,

"how does she even know about this stuff already" ... "Girls always know before boys" ... "Why?" ... "Because they have to!"

That back and fourth almost sounds like she's experienced this, and giving in sexually was a means of surviving. That script could totally be written.



My working hypothesis at the moment is that recently murdered girl, who Patrick Chewing up there asked if anyone recalls them mentioning her name, and after re-watching, I didn't pick up on anything. My guess is that that's Hart's daughter. Both Hart and Cohl pick up on the fact that the current detectives are pressing because they've caught something else. Hart shows little to no knowledge of what it might be (which is a little odd because he seems to still be a working cop), but Cohl almost immediately ties it to a report in a newspaper he read about on a dead body up at some lake.

His monitoring this stuff I think is meant as a misdirection to make us think he's the guy. And the quickness with which the investigators show him the picture I think is intended to tell the audience that they think he's the guy, as if they're trying to read his reaction to the picture. I also think there's some implication from all the cross iconography around him, and the fact the girl is crucified. Cohl has the conversation with Hart about The Cross early on. Cohl has a cross above his bed. Cohl fixates on the Cross in Lester from the Wire's church. And now Cohl is cutting his beer cans into cross like artifacts.

The question is how could Hart's daughter be missing for a month at least (according to how long ago the article was about the dead body) and he not know it. My guess is that over the next few weeks we'll learn just how estranged Maggie and the daughters got from Hart. I'm guessing things really didn't go well from here out, and possibly with influence from the grandfather. I think there's something too the fact that Cohl was so quickly shown the photo (although he did ask about it), and the fact that Marty wasn't shown it at all (although he gives the wry smile saying they must've caught something, and doesn't really press to see any more of it). I think Marty's horseshit dialogue, that's been edited to look super horseshitty, where everything he says in the current time he's shown behaving in almost the complete opposite way in the flashbacks, is a result to cover up what he considers a monstrous failure on the part of taking care of his family. He fixates on family during his current conversation with the investigators. I'm sure these guys know enough about Marty and Cohl's falling out to believe Cohl is a really viable suspect if that body is indeed Marty's daughter (off the grid, associated with the case for the symbology, lost a daughter of his own, and obviously had some harsh falling out with Marty that we haven't been privied to just yet).


As for the super TV possible ending, of Rust actually being the guy, the only evidence I can see supporting that is his discovery of the pyramid in the Fontaneau girl's shed. You could play up that he planted it there. Otherwise there isn't much unless they do a super cheesey drop everything kind of a moment, that just doesn't fit with the tone and tenor of anything the show has presented so far.


It really warranted the rewatch. The show is rich in regional dialogue, technical dialogue from the police end of it, and Cohl's philosophical rambling is dense. And I still feel like there's some greek literary symbolism in here with the way the story is told. Almost like The Oddessy, in the way they keep floating down this narrative running into single weird events one at a time (I got an Apocolypse Now vibe off of it, which I suppose yields a Dante's Inferno vibe, which owes a bit to The Oddessy I suppose). Combine all that with what is a gorgeously shot, but super rich visual environment, and a spectacular, but also loaded soundtrack, and this is not a casual TV watching experience. It requires some focus and some thought, and truthfully probably more than I had given it the first time through. But with having rewatched the first 4 episodes, I feel like I'm engaged so much in the story now that I won't have to from here out.

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:58 PM   #236
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Okay so I'm just going to say this even though I know I am the only one that feels this way. I actually found the end of episode 4 to be an eye-roller. He walks into a biker bar and throws a freakin kilo of coke at someone like it isn't shit asking for a huge drug deals right off the bat and is suddenly thrown into a drug house robbery on the spot without any planning or know of the situation? I mean, come on. It was shot beautifully, and the overall feel was awesome, but the situation in general was very hokey to me. And then on top of that he just punches the biker and suddenly he can grab the biker by the shoulder and just lead him where ever he wants?

someone in this thread mentioned GTA, and you know what, that is EXACTLY what it felt like, suddenly the show turned into a GTA Level. It really deviated from what the show is about IMO.

all that said, love this show and can't f'n wait for the next episode...

I actually agreed with this after watching the episode. It felt out of place and a little over the top but I enjoyed it mainly because of the way it was shot technically, not so much the content. Personally I liked the pacing of the first 3 episodes better than the fourth but it was inevitable that guns would start blasting in a story like this.

The Wire was much the same in that regard. It was a nice, slow burn that was occasionally punctuated by a shootout or Omar doing some outlandish Batman shit
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:49 AM   #237
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

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Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
And then on top of that he just punches the biker and suddenly he can grab the biker by the shoulder and just lead him where ever he wants?

He leads him wherever he wants because he has a gun on him...

Quote:
it was all way way way too fast IMO, even with those things in mind...no one just randomly hops into robberies like that on a moment's notice

What do you mean? Ginger said he was short a man for the robbery and came to the bar looking to get a replacement and offered it to Cohle 'if he was still a badass'. Cohle had little choice if he was going to get to Ledoux.

Quote:
and no one throws coke around like that either, that was still thousands $$$ in street value...the "here you go I got mountains where that shit came from" line made me facepalm a little...

His cover story is that he was working security for a Mexican group and that he had Colombian connections, and that they were trying to trade coke for meth. If he's looking to do big trades, then that amount shouldn't be shit to him. The bag he gave him was barely a 1/4 full.

That scene was GTA-like, but if I like something enough, then I don't have a problem overlooking some things. It seemed rushed, but who cares? Cohle got hit from behind with a baseball bat and then the guy waited for him to get back up before he swung again, but who cares? It's TV and it's fine as long as they don't push it too far.
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Old 02-15-2014, 05:36 PM   #238
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

I said I can't wait till the next episode and that it didn't kill the show for me or anything, just voicing my opinion that I'm not crazy about that scene like others seem to be. It was on the outlandish side IMO and the show had not been on the outlandish side until that scene.
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Old 02-15-2014, 05:56 PM   #239
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

Now that I think about it, it probably is Hart's daughter. Don't forget this picture was found in Dora Lang's house, meaning she was probably introduced to the cult at an early age, like Hart's daughter presumably has



This is this type of capuchon shit worn at margi gras



Also let's not forget her journal entry

"I closed my eyes and saw the King in Yellow moving through the forest,"..."The King's children are marked. They became his angels."

Likely meaning the kids are chosen at an early age and "primed", or introduced to the cult, for being raped/sacrificed at a later age.

Last edited by Joyner82reload : 02-15-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:23 PM   #240
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Default Re: HBO's True Detective discussion

not seeing a new episode for tonight, wth?
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