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Old 08-11-2013, 03:43 PM   #1
TonyMontana
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Default NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.



Hakeem:
32.8 PPG
11.5 RPG
6.5 APG
48.3 FG%
2.0 BPG

Shaq
28.0 PPG
12.5 RPG
6.3 APG
59.5 FG%
2.5 BPG

How is this owned? Hakeem put up some great numbers, but so did Shaq. Neither could stop the other. Hakeem put up more points, but he took 116 shots compared to Shaqs 74 in the series. 48% for a center, let alone the guy with the "best low post moves in NBA History" reputation is not very ****ing good.

While Shaq nearly shot 60% from the field almost equaling his scoring. I'd take Shaqs numbers over Olajuwon any day.

Cool note: Very high assist numbers for centers. I'm going to have to try and look these games up on youtube sometime this week.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMontana


Hakeem:
32.8 PPG
11.5 RPG
6.5 APG
48.3 FG%
2.0 BPG

Shaq
28.0 PPG
12.5 RPG
6.3 APG
59.5 FG%
2.5 BPG

How is this owned? Hakeem put up some great numbers, but so did Shaq. Neither could stop the other. Hakeem put up more points, but he took 116 shots compared to Shaqs 74 in the series. 48% for a center, let alone the guy with the "best low post moves in NBA History" reputation is not very ****ing good.

While Shaq nearly shot 60% from the field almost equaling his scoring. I'd take Shaqs numbers over Olajuwon any day.

Cool note: Very high assist numbers for centers. I'm going to have to try and look these games up on youtube sometime this week.

I think most more-than-casual fans realize that Shaq wasn't dominated. It's all relative really - Hakeem was really the first guy and one of the few who could hold Shaq back just enough to beat him. Shaq himself has recognized this and shown Hakeem respect for it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

So, you haven't actually watched the games, and yet you are still attempting to make a definitive statement on how one player fared against another based solely on statistics......
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPippen
So, you haven't actually watched the games, and yet you are still attempting to make a definitive statement on how one player fared against another based solely on statistics......

You watch the games live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterAmazing
I think most more-than-casual fans realize that Shaq wasn't dominated. It's all relative really - Hakeem was really the first guy and one of the few who could hold Shaq back just enough to beat him. Shaq himself has recognized this and shown Hakeem respect for it.

Sounds like bullshit.

Just like that shit about "oh Russell let Wilt score in the beginning of games just to block him at the end!".

Shaq wasn't "held back". He averaged less than a point difference from his regular season average, he was more efficient, assits nearly tripled, and his rebounding went up.

Last edited by TonyMontana : 08-11-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Yes, it would be inaccurate to say that he 'owned' Shaq, but he did outplay and outperform Shaq. This is something that can only be seen by actually watching the games instead of analysing stats with no context, which is what you are shamelessly doing.

From another post I made before...

"It was a sweep and Shaq himself will tell you that Hakeem whooped his ass. And you're going to let blind stats dictate your opinion of it?

I'll give you Shaq outplaying Hakeem in game 1, he was incredible in this game. Orlando really should have won that game, and it was very unfortunate that Anderson choked that game away. But Hakeem did have the game winning tip.

The flaw in your stats based argument comes to light in game 2: Shaq had better all round stats than Hakeem (33-12-7 vs 34-11-2), but it doesn't say anything about CONTEXT. The Rockets slaughtered Orlando in the first half where Hakeem did most of his damage, and while I hate to throw the term 'stat padding' around, Shaq did his in the second half when Orlando never came all that close to Houston. Hakeem dominated Shaq in this one, and Shaq couldn't live with Hakeem one on one (watch the game).

In game 3... pretty similar performances. Horry really made the difference in this game and Hakeem & Shaq both played well.

Hakeem completely dominated Shaq in game 4 to seal the victory. Even your stats will point to this.

Don't get me wrong, by that stage, Shaq was already 'unguardable' and he was already amazing. But Hakeem outplayed him in that series. This is what watching games tells you. I agree that Hakeem's team mates outplayed Shaq's, but it's ironic because Orlando actually went into that game seen as the team with a better supporting cast.

The reason they won was that Hakeem's team mates stepped up, but to suggest that Hakeem didn't have a say in that or that Hakeem didn't orchestrate the offense (he did) to a ridiculous level is ludicrous.

Please go watch the actual games."
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

those APG stats...
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Xerxes
Yes, it would be inaccurate to say that he 'owned' Shaq, but he did outplay and outperform Shaq. This is something that can only be seen by actually watching the games instead of analysing stats with no context, which is what you are shamelessly doing.

From another post I made before...

"It was a sweep and Shaq himself will tell you that Hakeem whooped his ass. And you're going to let blind stats dictate your opinion of it?

I'll give you Shaq outplaying Hakeem in game 1, he was incredible in this game. Orlando really should have won that game, and it was very unfortunate that Anderson choked that game away. But Hakeem did have the game winning tip.

The flaw in your stats based argument comes to light in game 2: Shaq had better all round stats than Hakeem (33-12-7 vs 34-11-2), but it doesn't say anything about CONTEXT. The Rockets slaughtered Orlando in the first half where Hakeem did most of his damage, and while I hate to throw the term 'stat padding' around, Shaq did his in the second half when Orlando never came all that close to Houston. Hakeem dominated Shaq in this one, and Shaq couldn't live with Hakeem one on one (watch the game).

In game 3... pretty similar performances. Horry really made the difference in this game and Hakeem & Shaq both played well.

Hakeem completely dominated Shaq in game 4 to seal the victory. Even your stats will point to this.

Don't get me wrong, by that stage, Shaq was already 'unguardable' and he was already amazing. But Hakeem outplayed him in that series. This is what watching games tells you. I agree that Hakeem's team mates outplayed Shaq's, but it's ironic because Orlando actually went into that game seen as the team with a better supporting cast.

The reason they won was that Hakeem's team mates stepped up, but to suggest that Hakeem didn't have a say in that or that Hakeem didn't orchestrate the offense (he did) to a ridiculous level is ludicrous.


Please go watch the actual games."

well said
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

No, I did not watch the games live, nor did I ever suggest that I did.

I did suggest, however, that you are a fool for trying to assert your judgment of a game that you have never seen.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Xerxes
Yes, it would be inaccurate to say that he 'owned' Shaq, but he did outplay and outperform Shaq. This is something that can only be seen by actually watching the games instead of analysing stats with no context, which is what you are shamelessly doing.

From another post I made before...

"It was a sweep and Shaq himself will tell you that Hakeem whooped his ass. And you're going to let blind stats dictate your opinion of it?

I'll give you Shaq outplaying Hakeem in game 1, he was incredible in this game. Orlando really should have won that game, and it was very unfortunate that Anderson choked that game away. But Hakeem did have the game winning tip.

The flaw in your stats based argument comes to light in game 2: Shaq had better all round stats than Hakeem (33-12-7 vs 34-11-2), but it doesn't say anything about CONTEXT. The Rockets slaughtered Orlando in the first half where Hakeem did most of his damage, and while I hate to throw the term 'stat padding' around, Shaq did his in the second half when Orlando never came all that close to Houston. Hakeem dominated Shaq in this one, and Shaq couldn't live with Hakeem one on one (watch the game).

In game 3... pretty similar performances. Horry really made the difference in this game and Hakeem & Shaq both played well.

Hakeem completely dominated Shaq in game 4 to seal the victory. Even your stats will point to this.

Don't get me wrong, by that stage, Shaq was already 'unguardable' and he was already amazing. But Hakeem outplayed him in that series. This is what watching games tells you. I agree that Hakeem's team mates outplayed Shaq's, but it's ironic because Orlando actually went into that game seen as the team with a better supporting cast.

The reason they won was that Hakeem's team mates stepped up, but to suggest that Hakeem didn't have a say in that or that Hakeem didn't orchestrate the offense (he did) to a ridiculous level is ludicrous.

Please go watch the actual games."

How old are you to have watched the actual games?

Shaq is just giving the veteran hall of famer in his prime respect(deserved). Hows he going to look if he says "Yea me and Hakeem were on equal footing, but I didn't get the help that he did". Only JR Smith like characters would say that kind of shit.

And just so you know, points/rebounds and all that count just as much in the first quarter as they do in the 3rd quarter or the 4th quarter. This is a pathetlic level people go to try and talk shit. "Oh well where was he in the 4th quarter?". "Where was he in the 1st quarter?". What matters is the production provided by the end of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPippen
No, I did not watch the games live

Didn't think so.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

No one got owned, but Hakeem outplayed Shaq. Watch the games.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMontana
How old are you to have watched the actual games?

Shaq is just giving the veteran hall of famer in his prime respect(deserved). Hows he going to look if he says "Yea me and Hakeem were on equal footing, but I didn't get the help that he did". Only JR Smith like characters would say that kind of shit.

And just so you know, points/rebounds and all that count just as much in the first quarter as they do in the 3rd quarter or the 4th quarter. This is a pathetlic level people go to try and talk shit. "Oh well where was he in the 4th quarter?". "Where was he in the 1st quarter?". What matters is the production provided by the end of the game.


It's almost like you didn't even read his post.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Hakeem's entire career has become a bit of a myth. Great as he was from 93-95, revisionist history has turned him into this flawless player who played like that his whole career. And because of it, quite a few end up ranking him above players(Shaq, Duncan, LeBron & Kobe) he has no business being ranked ahead of. Not by any metric.

Anyway, colts18 of RealGM did a possession by possession breakdown of Hakeem vs. Shaq in the '95 Finals. Put an end to a lot of myths.

Quote:
I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Watch the damn games before you try to discuss them, idiot.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Just watched the first quarter.

Hakeem went 4-6 for 10 points.

3 of those baskets came when Horace Grant was on him.(from either switches or when Shaq went to the bench with foul trouble).

Man looks like Shaqs not even going to be the guy he gets the majority of his points against. Really disapointing. Watching the games just exposes this "ownage".

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Old 08-11-2013, 04:21 PM   #15
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Default Re: NBA myths: Hakeem "owned" Shaq in the 1995 Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMontana
How old are you to have watched the actual games?

I'm 28 and actually watched that finals when I was 10. Naturally I don't claim to remember it all back then, but I watched the whole thing last year. Unlike you of course. Unbelievable that you have the audacity to make such a strong assertion without ever watching the games.

The rest of your post isn't worth responding to.
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