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Old 03-05-2007, 02:41 PM   #16
Celts34
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
I've been watching Wally for years, and he's never been a good, nor above average defender, has always been slow, and always gets hurt. The Celtics got absolutely raped in the Timberwolves trade last year, since Ricky alone is worth two Wally's alone... but they had to get rid of Blount.

Green is already more reliable than Wally, I'd take Green over him right now and the future...


I have to call BS on you saying that Wally' always been hurt. Especially when in his 8 years, he has only played in less then 50 games twice and thats including this season.

How did we get raped in the T-wolves deal? What has Ricky done since going there besides not be injured? His numbers are basically what they've always been. Unless I missed something and the T-wolves have become some type of pwerhouse team, the trade was basically a wash.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

The trade made sense when it was made. It only looks bad in retrospect because Wally is always hurt - although that has had the incedental benefit of more pt for Gerald Green and Tony Allen.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:36 AM   #18
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

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Originally Posted by Celts34
I have to call BS on you saying that Wally' always been hurt. Especially when in his 8 years, he has only played in less then 50 games twice and thats including this season.

How did we get raped in the T-wolves deal? What has Ricky done since going there besides not be injured? His numbers are basically what they've always been. Unless I missed something and the T-wolves have become some type of pwerhouse team, the trade was basically a wash.

1.2004, Wolves were on a Championship run. Wally misses 25 some odd games in the middle of the run. He comes back a few weeks before the playoffs, the Wolves suddenly play .500 ball all the way into the playoffs and lose in the conference finals to the Lakers.

In season, Wally always needed to limit his minutes in critical points because it always seemed that he 'tweaked' something.

2. How did we not get raped in the Timberwolves trade? How did the Celtics benefit besides (now that wally is injured) more playing time for Gerald Green. Other than that, Ricky was improving every year here. He was becoming involved with the community, donating frequently. In games, he was having the ability to take games over in the fourth quarter(See Clippers 2005), and always hit the big shots.

The Wolves haven't become monsters because the Wolves have zero chemistry, much like the Knicks.(Although a lot better). Mchale himself is clueless how to surround KG and Ricky. But as we saw against them, Ricky still hits all the big shots.

If Ricky was here instead of Wally this year, it would be almost guaranteed we'd make the playoffs. But if you think making the lottery is a "wash", then sure it was even.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

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Originally Posted by JohnnySic
The trade made sense when it was made. It only looks bad in retrospect because Wally is always hurt - although that has had the incedental benefit of more pt for Gerald Green and Tony Allen.
Always looked bad to me, could have been packaged for something useful, first of all, Ricky didn't need to be included. Second, we could have traded for future firsts and fillers, a deal that made a lot more sense than Wally and Kandi...
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

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Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
If Ricky was here instead of Wally this year, it would be almost guaranteed we'd make the playoffs. But if you think making the lottery is a "wash", then sure it was even.
I gotta disagree with that. The chances would be improved but the 24 games Pierce missed would have still hurt bigtime. The last time Davis was the best player on a team they wound up with LeBron James, after all. Would Davis/Jefferson be that much better than Davis/Ilgauskas? Saying it's a guarantee is a stretch. There would be a chance, though, which is better than the present state of affairs.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Ok, let's look at this in the simplest way we can.

Wally can shoot the lights out, there's no denying that. The man is a walking injury. He can't run, he can't jump. He's a horrible defender. He has a high basektball IQ, he just doesn't have the tools to get it done, IMO. I believe, he was a four year college student, and he's been in the league for seven seasons.

Now, take out the injuries, add the ability to run and jump, and you have Gerald Green in only his second season out of high school.

Gerald has unlimited potential. Is Wally all of a sudden going to become a great defender, or have fly by's for some boards? Gerald is the same player as Wally right now, but 9 years younger. It'll take a few seasons, but if Gerald wants to defend, he certainly can.

Green all the way.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
1.2004, Wolves were on a Championship run. Wally misses 25 some odd games in the middle of the run. He comes back a few weeks before the playoffs, the Wolves suddenly play .500 ball all the way into the playoffs and lose in the conference finals to the Lakers.

In season, Wally always needed to limit his minutes in critical points because it always seemed that he 'tweaked' something.

2. How did we not get raped in the Timberwolves trade? How did the Celtics benefit besides (now that wally is injured) more playing time for Gerald Green. Other than that, Ricky was improving every year here. He was becoming involved with the community, donating frequently. In games, he was having the ability to take games over in the fourth quarter(See Clippers 2005), and always hit the big shots.

The Wolves haven't become monsters because the Wolves have zero chemistry, much like the Knicks.(Although a lot better). Mchale himself is clueless how to surround KG and Ricky. But as we saw against them, Ricky still hits all the big shots. . Wally

If Ricky was here instead of Wally this year, it would be almost guaranteed we'd make the playoffs. But if you think making the lottery is a "wash", then sure it was even.

So your going to use how he was hurt during one season and that he has mysterious injuries that force him to play less minutes. Ok I'm going to say it again, because maybe I'm making to much sense. Wally has only played 50 games or less twice in his 8 year career. And in that same period of time he's played in 72+ games 5 times. Take it how you want to take it but the facts don't support your claim that he's hurt all the time. Now if you want to say that he's has been hurt the majority of his time as a celtic, I'd have no argument with you there, but over the course of his career he has been healthy more times then he has been injured.

As for your infatuation with Ricky D, I can understand it. Ricky plays with alot of energy, and he can be very exciting to watch at times. But you are deluding yourself if think that he has been getting every year. Ricky' biggest problem has and always will be consistency. He just is not very consistent night to night. Not on offense or defense. He'll give you 35/7/7 one game and then 15/3/2 the next. Ricky Davis has plateaued as a player a while ago(he's 27 meaning he may get a little better, but in all likelihood he's the player he's going to be) lets put it like this he plays with perhaps the most unselfish superstar in the game and his numbers(outside of shooting) aren't any better and in some cases much worse then his Boston days.
You cannot call this trade anything other then a wash, because where has either team gotten substantially better. Winners and losers in trades are judged by wins and losses not Sportscenter highlights. The Wolves went from being a mediocre late lottery team, to a mediocre fringe playoff team. The Celtics went from a mid-lottery team to an early lottery team.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

There are factors beyond the trade that have effected the Celtic's record both positively as well as negatively, from Pierce's injury (negative) to Al Jefferson's emergence (positive). So it'd be inaccurate to say that the team's wins and losses reflect the value of the trade. Instead, the trade should be judged based on how the players involved have done for their teams, and in that regard, thanks to Szczerbiak's injuries, the deal has been a net loss.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

You have to take a healthy Szczerbiak over Wally at this point. He moves the ball better, is a very vocal leader, a good team defender (if poor man-to-man, and let's face it, Green is brutal on this side of the ball, too), has a high basketball IQ, and just understands the game better. If Szczerbiak is healthy, right now he's easily a better basketball player than Gerald Green.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

[quote=Real Men Wear Green]There are factors beyond the trade that have effected the Celtic's record both positively as well as negatively, from Pierce's injury (negative) to Al Jefferson's emergence (positive). So it'd be inaccurate to say that the team's wins and losses reflect the value of the trade. Instead, the trade should be judged based on how the players involved have done for their teams, and in that regard, thanks to Szczerbiak's injuries, the deal has been a net loss.[/QUOTE/]

I would love to agree with you GB. But what we aren't talking about fantasy basketball here. The T-Wolves are not much, if any at all, better now then they were prior to the deal. I don't think that GM' evaluate trades as to what numbers a guy puts up after they get him. I do think that performance is a large part of it, however wins and losses are what its all about. And in both cases for whatever reasons neither has had enough success to crow that the deal was anything other then a lateral move.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

So if Paul Pierce never got hurt, instead went out and averaged 30 and 10 and the Cs won the EC that would somehow make the trade a positive? And what if Ainge had kept the pick and drafted Foye or traded the pick, Rondo, Green, and whoever else for Iverson? That kind of logic is clearly flawed because lot of factors have gone into both team's seasons that had nothing to do with the deal. Paul Pierce's injury, in fact, is more important than the trade. So how can the trade accurately be judged based on wins and losses?
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

[quote=Real Men Wear Green]So if Paul Pierce never got hurt, instead went out and averaged 30 and 10 and the Cs won the EC that would somehow make the trade a positive? And what if Ainge had kept the pick and drafted Foye or traded the pick, Rondo, Green, and whoever else for Iverson? That kind of logic is clearly flawed because lot of factors have gone into both team's seasons that had nothing to do with the deal. Paul Pierce's injury, in fact, is more important than the trade.
Quote:
So how can the trade accurately be judged based on wins and losses?
Exactly, you cannot at all. You judge the trade by the other players production on that team.

And if you consider
Kandi's 0.3 minutes a game combined with Wally's 19 games a year shooting 41% from the field.

a wash

with Ricky Davis 17.9 PPG on 48% and Blount trying hard again getting 13.5 PPG on 52% shooting...

Then I can say there is no hope for you. Wipe off the sh*t goggles and try one last time.

Quote:
I would love to agree with you GB. But what we aren't talking about fantasy basketball here.


No one said we were, we are talking about producing on the floor. AKA: being effective; something Wally and Kandi aren't doing.


Even then, let's go over skill sets; who is the more valuable player and has the ability..? Well I'll give a scale from 1-5 for just Wally and Ricky (Save Kandi from the embarrassment)

Wally

Overall Shooting- 4.5
Post offense- 3
Dribbling- 2.5
Strength-2
Speed- 2
Quickness- 2.5
Overall athletic ability- 2
Man to man defense- 2
Help defense- 1
Durability- 0
Clutch factor- (generous) 3

Total- 23.5

Ricky D

Overall Shooting- 4
Post offense - 3
Dribbling- 4
Strength- 3.5
Speed- 4
Quickness-4
Overall Athletic ability- 5
Man to man D- 4 (when applied)
Help defense- 4.5
Durability- 5
Clutch Factor (A stingy) 4.5

Total- 43.5

And that's not even including every ability(Such as finishing in traffic, layups, heart, leadership, all which Ricky is superior in). It's just a joke for people to think Wally is close to what Ricky is and was, an absolute f*cking joke. The Wolves and what they are doing right now is completely irrelevant. Mchale is an idiot and Danny basically did him a favor giving him our great players, while we earned a sh*t contract from Wally.

Quote:
35/7/7 one game and then 15/3/2 the next. Ricky Davis has plateaued as a player a while ago(he's 27 meaning he may get a little better, but in all likelihood he's the player he's going to be) lets put it like this he plays with perhaps the most unselfish superstar in the game and his numbers(outside of shooting) aren't any better and in some cases much worse then his Boston days.


Ricky Was consistent, he would put up 18 a game on every night and break out in the fourth when he was needed (To average around 19 ppg). The reason his numbers are decreased is because of the abysmal coaching style they play over there in Minnesotta, but as we saw (I assume you watched), Ricky always comes up big when it matters, he is too good of a player to not produce despite what's going on around him.

Quote:
The Celtics went from a mid-lottery team to an early lottery team.

Wrong. The Celtics went from Division WINNER to mid lottery.

Quote:
You cannot call this trade anything other then a wash, because where has either team gotten substantially better. Winners and losers in trades are judged by wins and losses not Sportscenter highlights.


I guess I have to . Damn that's dumb son.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
And if you consider
Kandi's 0.3 minutes a game combined with Wally's 19 games a year shooting 41% from the field.

a wash

with Ricky Davis 17.9 PPG on 48% and Blount trying hard again getting 13.5 PPG on 52% shooting...
To be fair, Blount was a cancer and there is no way he'd be trying this hard in Boston.

Quote:
It's just a joke for people to think Wally is close to what Ricky is and was, an absolute f*cking joke.
A healthy Wally Szczerbiak is on Davis' level as a player. There's a reason he was an All-Star. Unfortunately, that version of Szczerbiak probably will never be heard from again.

And, Nexus, although I agree with some of what you're driving at here, it's pretty obvious that your affinity for Davis is clouding your judgment. I mean, come on. Your impromptu ratings and totals really don't hold any sort of true evidence and value, and saying that Wally was never on Davis' level is just ridiculous.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen

And, Nexus, although I agree with some of what you're driving at here, it's pretty obvious that your affinity for Davis is clouding your judgment. I mean, come on. Your impromptu ratings and totals really don't hold any sort of true evidence and value.
How are they flawed? seem accurate to me and my pal at my place. All I did was break down their skillsets and exposed why Wally is frequently overrated by some Celtic fans.

Edit: Can't spell 'break', apparently.

Last edited by XxNeXuSxX : 03-12-2007 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
How are they flawed? seem accurate to me and my pal at my place. All I did was brake down their skillsets and exposed why Wally is frequently overrated by some Celtic fans.
Well, Szczerbiak should probably get a "5" for shooting, he's at least as strong as Davis and yet you gave him a 2 to Davis's 3.5, the "0" for durability is overboard, and Davis isn't that good at dribbling (you gave him a 4 when his handle is average). Also, please don't ignite a flame war with Celts34. I know it happens all the time on the regular board, but ISH told me to keep that down, believe it or not, and I'm trying to do so.
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