Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1969 WC 1 Round

[julizaver]

Game 1 26.03.1969 - SFW win 99-94

Wilt 48 min 11 pts (5-11 FG, 1-3 FT), 30 rebs, 3 asts
Nate 48 min 15 pts (6-16 FG, 3-6 FT), 27 rebs, 8 asts

Game 2 28.03.1969 - SFW win 107-101

Wilt 41 min 10 pts (4-10 FG, 2-9 FT), 17 rebs, 1 asts
Nate 48 min 27 pts (11-18 FG, 5-6 FT), 28 rebs, 4 asts, 14 blks

Game 3 31.03.1969 - Lakers win 115-98

Wilt 44 min 22 pts (9-14 FG, 4-13 FT), 28 rebs, 5 asts, 8 blks
Nate 44 min 22 pts (8-20 FG, 6-11 FT), 20 rebs, 5 asts, 8 blks

Game 4 02.04.1969 - Lakers win 103-88

Wilt 42 min 11 pts (4-10 FG, 3-6 FT), 14 rebs, 3 asts, 9 blks
Nate 36 min 10 pts (3-13 FG, 4-5 FT), 15 rebs, 4 asts, 3 blks

Game 5 04.04.1969 - Lakers win 103-98

Wilt 48 min 7 pts (3-6 FG, 1-3 FT), 27 rebs, 2 asts, 10 blks
Nate 48 min 18 pts (9-22 FG, 0-3 FT), 13 rebs, 6 asts

Game 6 05.04.1969 - Lakers win 118-78

Wilt 39 min 11 pts (5-9 FG, 1-3 FT), 25 rebs, 1 ast, 10 blks
Nate 29 min 8 pts (3-13 FG, 2-3 FT), 14 rebs, 1 ast

For the series:

Wilt 43.7 mpg 12 ppg, 23.5 rpg, 2.5 apg on 50.0 % FG and 32.4 % FT
Nate 42.2 mpg 16.7 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 4.7 apg on 0.392 % FG and 58.8 % FT

Unofficial stats: Wilt blocked 37 shots in the last four games, Nate blocked 25 shots in the known 3 games (For some of the games there are some different numbers in different sources, but we speak about 1-2 blocks, so it wouldn't affect the general picture).

[Psileas]

Thurmond became probably the first player who outplayed Wilt in back to back playoff games and the Warriors took a 0-2 lead, then Wilt came back, outplayed Thurmond in 4 in a row and so did the Lakers (duh, that choker Thurmond...).

BTW, as tough as Thurmond was, his teams would at times lose big time. They lost the last game of this series by 40, they later lost to the Bucks by 50 and a regular season game to the '72 Lakers by like 63.

[Psileas]

BTW, nbastats estimates Wilt's game by game blocked shots as 6, 11, 11, 7, 14 and 15. I also read somewhere that Wilt had blocked 9 shots in the 1st half of game 5 alone.

[julizaver]

BTW, nbastats estimates Wilt's game by game blocked shots as 6, 11, 11, 7, 14 and 15. I also read somewhere that Wilt had blocked 9 shots in the 1st half of game 5 alone.

Those numbers are estimates, I have only posted exact numbers from archive articles.
I can prove it by uploading here (some of them are saved on my local disk).
Yes, in Game 5 Wilt blocked 9 shots in the first half.

[Pointguard]

Do any of you know if Thurmond played classic prototype center or was he playing hustle center like DH does now?

Thanks

[CavaliersFTW]

Do any of you know if Thurmond played classic prototype center or was he playing hustle center like DH does now?

Thanks

What does classic prototype vs hustle even mean? Be more specific I guess and I can try to help based on footage, I've seen a lot of footage of his. He had an extremely high motor, but that doesn't mean he also wasn't a traditional big. He played in the pivot, offensively and defensively. He played good position defense on his man, and tried to flat out shut down the basket from ANYONE whether it be his man or a guard driving in too close, he looks like he went after everything he could within the key and even a little bit outside depending on where the help was.

I do have this break-down btw of all his touches/activity of a game later in his career past his prime, but it shows what kind of shots he was comfortable taking, how he moved and saw the floor, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhPmER4HHA

[Pointguard]

What does classic prototype vs hustle even mean? Be more specific I guess and I can try to help based on footage, I've seen a lot of footage of his. He had an extremely high motor, but that doesn't mean he also wasn't a traditional big. He played in the pivot, offensively and defensively. He played good position defense on his man, and tried to flat out shut down the basket from ANYONE whether it be his man or a guard driving in too close, he looks like he went after everything he could within the key and even a little bit outside depending on where the help was.

I do have this break-down btw of all his touches/activity of a game later in his career past his prime, but it shows what kind of shots he was comfortable taking, how he moved and saw the floor, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhPmER4HHA

Yeah, you got it.

Classic prototype would be the Wilt/Kareem/Walton/Hakeem/Shaq this college kid Embid tradition: Classic post, center of offense, read the defense, repost make move or operate out of post and cover a radius from the hoop. Hustle players don't have a very defined way of playing like Ben Wallace, or DH now, most of the league's centers right now.

[Pointguard]

CavsFTW, Thurmond was definitely a hustle center in that clip. A very definite majority of his post ups were 15 feet away from the basket and out of his range. At this stage in his career he should know where he's effective and how to get there?

Dwight Howard was making the move toward being a classical post prototype center but now has moved away from that. So there could be reasons as to why a player might do that. I don't know enough of Nate's background to suggest anything. But at that time in history, centers knew what their value was and played toward their height. They developed their skills around the basket and knew how to get to their strengths. The prototype classical centers were like that.

[julizaver]

CavsFTW, Thurmond was definitely a hustle center in that clip. A very definite majority of his post ups were 15 feet away from the basket and out of his range. At this stage in his career he should know where he's effective and how to get there?

Dwight Howard was making the move toward being a classical post prototype center but now has moved away from that. So there could be reasons as to why a player might do that. I don't know enough of Nate's background to suggest anything. But at that time in history, centers knew what their value was and played toward their height. They developed their skills around the basket and knew how to get to their strengths. The prototype classical centers were like that.

Thurmond value is in the defensive end. And it was that during his whole career.

[La Frescobaldi]

CavsFTW, Thurmond was definitely a hustle center in that clip. A very definite majority of his post ups were 15 feet away from the basket and out of his range. At this stage in his career he should know where he's effective and how to get there?

Dwight Howard was making the move toward being a classical post prototype center but now has moved away from that. So there could be reasons as to why a player might do that. I don't know enough of Nate's background to suggest anything. But at that time in history, centers knew what their value was and played toward their height. They developed their skills around the basket and knew how to get to their strengths. The prototype classical centers were like that.

Thurmond was closer to what you are saying about a 'hustle center' on offense. He was dangerous to 20' & didn't care where his post game started. He would post up forwards, guards, it didn't matter at all. However if you are going to distingush you'd have to add a lot of guys that you might consider 'traditional.'

Moses Malone was a great post player but his jumper was good from anywhere. Earlier days Kareem had a drop dead 18 footer all the way round the basket, and you better believe Dirk never got his shot off as high as Jabbar did. Chamberlain was great with the fadeaway to 15' - Kevin Garnett basically stole Wilt Chamberlain's offense and built his entire career around it, from that turnaround fadeaway off the block, to waving the ball over a cutter's head, to the amazing assists & off-ball screens - and it's very very forgotten about Wilt's 7 or 8' jumper in the key below the free throw line but it was money.

But Nate you must remember played forward coming into the league - out of position, but what are you gonna do with Chamberlain at the C? Thus his game started off more to the outside and it would have just been natural to keep that awesome outside threat.
He was a little streaky, on the downside... he could miss in epic numbers when he was cold - unlike his brother the completely unstoppable Rick Barry who as far as I can remember was NEVER EVER cold. But when his jumper was falling, Nate Thurmond & Rick Barry were the original Splash Brothers.

Yeah I can see where you would say, Nate Thurmond in many ways was the original or prototype for many of today's centers. Nikola Pekovic is the great example today of the classic old-school center - that style I love best of all; but many of today's centers want to play like forwards, to the contemptible absurdity of a bynum who wants and demands to shoot 3s.

[LAZERUSS]

Thurmond became probably the first player who outplayed Wilt in back to back playoff games and the Warriors took a 0-2 lead, then Wilt came back, outplayed Thurmond in 4 in a row and so did the Lakers (duh, that choker Thurmond...).

BTW, as tough as Thurmond was, his teams would at times lose big time. They lost the last game of this series by 40, they later lost to the Bucks by 50 and a regular season game to the '72 Lakers by like 63.

And how about game three of the '73 WCF's, which took place in Oakland (and I was there to see it)? The Lakers crushed Nate's (and Barry's) Warriors, 126-70. Oh, and in game two of the '67 Finals, Chamberlain's Sixers murdered Nate's (and Barry's) Warriors, 126-95.


As for this series...just another example of no center ever outplaying Wilt in the post-season. And this was against a Chamberlain who played well below his normal standards.

[Pointguard]

However if you are going to distingush you'd have to add a lot of guys that you might consider 'traditional.'

Moses Malone was a great post player but his jumper was good from anywhere. Earlier days Kareem had a drop dead 18 footer all the way round the basket, and you better believe Dirk never got his shot off as high as Jabbar did. Chamberlain was great with the fadeaway to 15' - Kevin Garnett basically stole Wilt Chamberlain's offense and built his entire career around it, from that turnaround fadeaway off the block, to waving the ball over a cutter's head, to the amazing assists & off-ball screens - and it's very very forgotten about Wilt's 7 or 8' jumper in the key below the free throw line but it was money.

But Nate you must remember played forward coming into the league - out of position, but what are you gonna do with Chamberlain at the C? Thus his game started off more to the outside and it would have just been natural to keep that awesome outside threat.
He was a little streaky, on the downside... he could miss in epic numbers when he was cold - unlike his brother the completely unstoppable Rick Barry who as far as I can remember was NEVER EVER cold. But when his jumper was falling, Nate Thurmond & Rick Barry were the original Splash Brothers.

Yeah I can see where you would say, Nate Thurmond in many ways was the original or prototype for many of today's centers. Nikola Pekovic is the great example today of the classic old-school center - that style I love best of all; but many of today's centers want to play like forwards, to the contemptible absurdity of a bynum who wants and demands to shoot 3s.

Good Post.

Pete Newell taught basic traditional center from the Wilt model til the at least the late 80's. You could see the trend in different players. There were a basic set of skills that you saw in most of the centers that you rarely see now. KG learned most things himself. So he was watching films and just copyng things he saw.

[LAZERUSS]

As evidenced by this series, Chamberlain was the game's greatest shot-blocker. I also find it fascinating that in their known H2H's, Wilt murdered Russell in blocked shots. He slaughtered Kareem in that category, as well.

Of course, we now know that Wilt, in his LAST season, averaged 5.42 bpg. And for those that might suggest that KAJ or Nate were as good...in the very next season, when the NBA actually began to "officially" record blocked shots, KAJ averaged 3.5 and Nate was at 2.9.

And I believe that Psileas had Wilt with between 6-7 bpg in his 71-72 season, too.

What we really need though, is Wilt's blocks from the 60's. Even Harvey Pollack commented that he has entire seasons of 10+.

[LAZERUSS]

Good Post.

Pete Newell taught basic traditional center from the Wilt model til the at least the late 80's. You could see the trend in different players. There were a basic set of skills that you saw in most of the centers that you rarely see now. KG learned most things himself. So he was watching films and just copping things he was.

KG is a great comparison. A prime "scoring" Wilt looked very much like a prime Garnett. Maybe not quite the extended range that KG had, but from up to 15 feet they were nearly identical.

[julizaver]

And how about game three of the '73 WCF's, which took place in Oakland (and I was there to see it)? The Lakers crushed Nate's (and Barry's) Warriors, 126-70. Oh, and in game two of the '67 Finals, Chamberlain's Sixers murdered Nate's (and Barry's) Warriors, 126-95.


As for this series...just another example of no center ever outplaying Wilt in the post-season. And this was against a Chamberlain who played well below his normal standards.

I will create a new thread about '73 series.
I think the data for '67 series is widespread all over the net and there is no need to post it. I could only add that Nate Thurmond blocked 9 shots in Game 2 (Sixers win) and 8 shots in Game 5 (Warriors win).