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Old 01-17-2014, 06:57 AM   #166
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundizz
Spoken like a true herb.

If a girl chooses to keep the baby that's all good. I support choice. However, the father should also have a choice whether he wants a baby, both for financial and emotional reasons. If he wants no part of the kid, should definitely be able to sign some sort of legality paper that makes it so he doesn't have to pay child support etc. If he wants to support the kid then he can choose to do that.

Key factor, the women is choosing to key the baby. The man doesn't (and shouldn't) get any say in this since it is not him carrying the child. However, to say he has to be responsible for the next 18 years is just unfair. The only time a man should have to pay child support is a pregnancy happens during being married.

It's not entirely fair when you compare the legal situation of the man and the woman, but laws don't always have to be based around what is "fair" for the individual.

Why should society have to subsidize scumbags who impregnate women they don't give a shit about? If the child exists someone is going to have to pick up the tab anyway, and I rather have that be the man responsible than me and the rest of the taxpayers.
More importantly, as a society you want to keep the amount of children growing up in broken homes as low as possible.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:10 PM   #167
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
You totally missed the point. Why should the man be legally required to finance a baby he doesn't want when a woman can basically drop her child off at a hospital or fire station with no questions asked? Which is essentially abandoning the child.
nobody has of yet answered this
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:21 PM   #168
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
If the man is allowed to opt out of responsibility for the child you are not really giving the woman complete control over whether or not she has the baby. She has to factor the lack of support from the man into her decision. Your thinking lacks any kind of appreciation for how difficult that is. Fortunately we live in a society that isn't so completely amoral.
First of all most men would not opt out of the responsibility of rearing a child. If a man and woman are married/in a committed relationship there is very little chance that he wouldnt be overjoyed with the prospect of parenthood.

Second of all I am asking for equality under the law. Do you support safe haven laws? Do you support the ability to choose when to become a mother based only on social and economic factors? Do you buy into the studies that show how unplanned motherhood statistically speaking dooms a woman to a life of poverty?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-haven_law

Quote:
Safe-haven laws (also known in some states as "Baby Moses laws", in reference to the religious scripture) are statutes in the United States that decriminalize the leaving of unharmed infants with statutorily designated private persons so that the child becomes a ward of the state. "Safe-haven" laws typically let parents remain nameless to the court, often using a numbered bracelet system as the only means of linking the baby to the parent. Some states treat safe-haven surrenders as child dependency or abandonment, with a complaint being filed for such in juvenile court. The parent either defaults or answers the complaint. Others treat safe-haven surrenders as adoption surrenders, hence a waiver of parental rights (see parental responsibility). Police stations, hospitals, rescue squads, and fire houses are all typical locations to which the safe-haven law applies.[1]
Texas was the first state to enact a “Baby Moses Law” in 1999

All I am asking for is for safe haven laws to apply to men. If a male is unprepared to be a parent they should have a legal recourse to give up the rights and responsibilities of parenthood through an adoption like procedure.

This has nothing to do with a womans ability to choose whether to abort or not. Whats next are you going to argue that poor people should be guaranteed bank loans or they arent really free to purchase a house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
Question for the guys supporting this:

Would it also be ok for women to walk away from the financial burden? The woman has the child, hands it over to the guy, and walks away. The guy now becomes the single parent who shoulders the entire financial burden.
2 points.

1. i think i wasnt clear enough that i think safe haven laws should apply to men as well as women. This means that decision to severe ties with a child can only occur in the first few days of birth. After that point it becomes much more difficult to give a child up for adoption.

2. if a woman immediately after birth decides to give a child up for adoption and severe ties with that child, she should not be forced to raise it. IF the father wants to take the child, he should bear the full financial cost and have the full rights to the child.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:25 PM   #169
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Mavs wrote:So I point out that a woman dealing with an absentee mate has to consider that when making her decision. I did not miss the point you just have yet again failed to understand basic English.

Not even in the mood to start on your wonderful solution of abandoning babies at fire hydrants. (Intentional misinterpretation there, letting you know because you seem a little slow even when I write plainly).


your argument is flawed.

its like arguing that banks should be required to give automatic low interest loans to poor people with horrible credit, because not doing so would infringe on their choice of house arrangements. Its not societies responsibility to provide the resources to purchase a home to anyone. It is societies responsibility to give the right of buying a home to everyone.

Women have the right to choose to abort or keep the baby. that is 100% their choice. they should not be able to claim the money of the father.

We have safe haven laws in this country that allow a women to easily give up an unwanted child for adoption. There is a lot of studies that show the benefits of safe haven laws.

What is the argument against extending safe haven laws to males?
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:32 PM   #170
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

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Originally Posted by IamRAMBO24
Your argument is flawed and you know it.

You said the man should have the right to decide what a woman does to her body. Did you not say that? Do I need to quote you?
I am still waiting for either a quote or an admission that you made a mistake.

I am very much pro choice. I have been 100% supportive of a womans right to unilaterally choose whether to abort or keep a baby since highschool

I am very liberal on stuff like this and offended that you claimed I wanted to curtail a woman's right to choose
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:09 PM   #171
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

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Originally Posted by miller-time
Just don't have sex with women you aren't willing to impregnate. If you can't accept the risk then don't engage in the behavior. Have a wank.

I agree with this, however it's not entirely his fault. She could have insisted he wear a condom before jumping on her back and spreading her legs.

Both are idiots and both are to blame.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:29 PM   #172
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

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Originally Posted by niko
And people don't see pregnancy or birth as a hardship for women for some reason. It's baffling. They really are like children, themselves first always. As men.
They do?

Life is full of hardships that are completely undesired, so i don't see how this one should be any different. From my perspective, i can't think of many things more selfish than aborting your child to make your life less painful and more convenient. THAT is the definition of a selfish act.

And yes, there is a double standard when it comes to reproductive rights; if the decision depends solely on the mother, then legal responsibility for the child should also lie with the mother. In what world is 'i can kill this foetus against your will if i so choose, but if i keep it you gonna pay for it' equal in any way?
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:52 PM   #173
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Oh yes it is. When my wife was pregnant with our first child. Her doctor said she had a calcium deficiency. Obviously we were afraid for the child's development. The doctor was more.concerned with what would happen to my wife. He stated if she wasnt taking in enough calcium, the baby would extract it from the mother herself. And in time the mother would develop complications down the road from it. Thats when he explained that the baby is gonna get what it needs to develop first. Obviously if the mother isnt taking in nutrients, the baby will suffer as well.

But my point is the mother has no say in how much of the nutrients she takes in will be allotted for baby. Baby takes it.
The baby does take from the same nutrient stores, but all that's really required would be to drink an extra glass of milk a day in that case (calcium). I don't see how this is a problem. The belief that a pregnant woman needs to consume for 2 is a myth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
Second of all I am asking for equality under the law. Do you support safe haven laws? Do you support the ability to choose when to become a mother based only on social and economic factors? Do you buy into the studies that show how unplanned motherhood statistically speaking dooms a woman to a life of poverty?
As a person who thinks equality under the law to be a salient principle that has been forgotten or disregarded in favour of other, less attainable forms of equality, i find it strange that you would say this, considering how many of the views you have expressed on here are completely dependent on the inequality of the law. The state gets involved on the behalf of one set of people, to the detriment of others, all the bloody time. Nor are things like progressive taxation compatible with equality before the law.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:40 AM   #174
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
women have an easy road through life, as much as they complain that they dont. All they need to do is have a baby or get married to some schmo and they can sit on their ass for the rest of their lives watching X-factor.


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Old 01-22-2014, 02:50 PM   #175
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Oh yes it is. When my wife was pregnant with our first child. Her doctor said she had a calcium deficiency. Obviously we were afraid for the child's development. The doctor was more.concerned with what would happen to my wife. He stated if she wasnt taking in enough calcium, the baby would extract it from the mother herself. And in time the mother would develop complications down the road from it. Thats when he explained that the baby is gonna get what it needs to develop first. Obviously if the mother isnt taking in nutrients, the baby will suffer as well.

But my point is the mother has no say in how much of the nutrients she takes in will be allotted for baby. Baby takes it.
Sure, the baby takes it by a nine inch placental interface on the uterine wall. Now let's go back to my post that you blatantly ignored, all the mother's blood is flowing in the mother. There is no blood ever flowing from the mother to the fetus. What happens when blood flows through blood vessels? Different molecules(nutrients, energy carriers, etc) bind to proteins situated on the vessel wall. There is much more blood flowing in the mother's body than across the placental area of contact. This means that there are more chemical and energy producing reactions occurring in the mother which means more net nutrients are used for the mother.
You are right that the mother has no say in how much of the nutrients will be uptaken by the baby. That amount is governed by placental transport efficiency(density of nutrient uptake proteins on placental interface) and concentration of nutrients in the mother's blood which requires adequate nutrition in the mother. I used a lot of words that you probably do not know, but my point is what your doctor said does not support what you said. Decalcification in the mother is an example of the symbiotic relationship in which both bodies can adapt to the metabolism of the other. What evolutionary advantage would "operating solely for fetus" serve? The mother has to survive to take care of the baby. The mother's metabolism serves itself more than the needs of the baby.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:22 PM   #176
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Equal rights and all that stuff between men and women how they're viewed in sceenarios like this, is a deep topic. shit is very complex.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:26 PM   #177
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
women have an easy road through life, as much as they complain that they dont. All they need to do is have a baby or get married to some schmo and they can sit on their ass for the rest of their lives watching X-factor.

Not just that, but almost always they have an easy/great school road to age 20 somewhat too.

Atleast thats the good looking ones, those become more and more tricking people with make up. They get everything they want, are popular and rarely ever attacked n stuff. Teachers go easier on them too i feel.
They have it all easier, but then again there is a different side in today's age, women being looked at as objects a lot, which is because most of them are also arrogant dbags, outside of looks not much interesting about them.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:22 PM   #178
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

There has always been a double standard when it comes to equal rights. Women have all the say and are greatly favored in courts when it comes to custody. It's only in recent history that women have been sent off to fight in wars. Front line soldiers are still the men.

I'm all for equal rights AS LONG as it is equal rights!
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:36 PM   #179
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dresta
As a person who thinks equality under the law to be a salient principle that has been forgotten or disregarded in favour of other, less attainable forms of equality, i find it strange that you would say this, considering how many of the views you have expressed on here are completely dependent on the inequality of the law. The state gets involved on the behalf of one set of people, to the detriment of others, all the bloody time. Nor are things like progressive taxation compatible with equality before the law.
You are right. When I refer to equality under the law I am only referring in regards to gender, race/ethnicity, age, orientation, religion and other such liberal ideas of equality.

I think its completely fair for example to deny the right to vote to a person convicted of a felony. I think its is completely acceptable to gave harsher sentences to repeat offenders.

I think progressive taxation is completely acceptable. I think property taxes are completely acceptable.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:12 PM   #180
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Default Re: Gender inequality when it comes to reproductive rights

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Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
You are right. When I refer to equality under the law I am only referring in regards to gender, race/ethnicity, age, orientation, religion and other such liberal ideas of equality.

I think its completely fair for example to deny the right to vote to a person convicted of a felony. I think its is completely acceptable to gave harsher sentences to repeat offenders.

I think progressive taxation is completely acceptable. I think property taxes are completely acceptable.
Ah, so you pick and choose your prejudices, i see. I think you will find that the liberal idea of equality is for equality before the law, and that it is needed to have a government ruled by law rather than the arbitrary whims of men, and the injudicious opinions of the majority. That is what liberal equality meant before socialists mutilated its definition. It was the philosophical justification for the American revolution, and provided the system of values and ideals that the United States was founded on. It also brought unprecedented human advance and achievement with it. For democracy to function correctly, equality before the law must be adhered to, the two are contiguous.

Your understanding has been manipulated without you even being aware of it:

'‘The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.”

Your middle paragraph would be perfectly compatible with equality before the law anyway. And i think when many of the so-called liberals are clamouring for 'equality' for one particular group, frequently what they are asking for is for the state to intervene on the behalf of one group, which is not equality before the law. They may call it 'positive discrimination' in another effort to manipulate language in their favour, but to positively discriminate against one person, you must negatively discriminate against somebody else.

edit: can someone tell me how a word can be changed to mean the opposite of what it originally did (in less than 100 years, no less) and it retain any value or use whatsoever. Liberal is now a redundant term, and i generally know that anybody who refers to themselves as one doesn't know what they're talking about.

Last edited by Dresta : 01-25-2014 at 03:23 PM.
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