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Old 02-22-2014, 08:17 PM   #31
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
The thing that made Michael Vick such a unique young player was his combination of arm strength, quickness and top-end speed. I have to say, I really don't see Manziel touching a young Vick in any of these three categories.

Vick could flick the ball 65 yards on a rope. Manziel has pretty good arm strength, but I've never seen him approach that level of arm strength.

Vick often looked like the quickest/fastest player on an NFL field. Manziel has nice quickness and speed, but I don't see him approaching that level of quickness/speed.

On top of that, Vick was 6-1, 210 pounds... Bigger, faster, stronger than Manziel.

Johnny is a unique football player which is why he's intriguing for a lot of teams and scary for many others. I have a lot of concerns, though, that probably wouldn't be so overwhelming if he were close to the freak of nature that Vick was.
Manziel is 6'0" 207 official...1 inch and 3 pounds is hardly "bigger"...and if so than Manziel is "bigger" than Russell Wilson

Anything he lacks in arm strength he makes up for in accuracy in comparison to Vick, I fully expect him to have a better passer rating his first few years than Vick as a Falcon.

Manziel also amassed more rushing yardage in college than Vick... so not sure if that extra speed means that much, Manziel is still VERY fast compared to other QBs


Unfortunately will take 3-4 years before I can say "told ya"
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I favor this plan over going QB first, personally.

My personal wishlist for the first round is Sammy Watkins at 4 and then coming back and grabbing CJ Mosley at 26. I'd maybe even consider trading up to get Mosley if they don't think he'll fall to 26. I like that kid a lot and we desperately need an upgrade at ILB.

Grab the best QB available in either the second or third round. Mettenberger would be fine with me.

A Josh Gordon / Sammy Watkins / Jordan Cameron trio would cause a lot of problems.

I don't see Mosley dropping to 26 either, to be honest. If the Browns aren't getting him and maybe go QB/WR in the first, they could take a gamble on Borland in the second. He's a bit small and lacks elite coverage skills, but the guy is a house. I believe we could seriously cut into opponents rushing yardage with him aswell (but it's a passing league now, so wouldn't surprise me if he falls into the 3rd where he should be a must have).

That Watkins/Gordon/Cameron possibility does make me salivate, though. My goodness. I'm just a bit anxious the FO is gonna be afraid to not take a QB with all the 'we NEED a franchise QB finally' and just go with one of those higher rated QBs. I'm in the Bortles camp myself, if they pick one and hopefully he's there at 4.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:48 PM   #33
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Manziel is 6'0" 207 official...1 inch and 3 pounds is hardly "bigger"...and if so than Manziel is "bigger" than Russell Wilson

Anything he lacks in arm strength he makes up for in accuracy in comparison to Vick, I fully expect him to have a better passer rating his first few years than Vick as a Falcon.

Manziel also amassed more rushing yardage in college than Vick... so not sure if that extra speed means that much, Manziel is still VERY fast compared to other QBs


Unfortunately will take 3-4 years before I can say "told ya"
First, I think it's important for me to clarify that I'm not saying Manziel is going to bust. I learned a long time ago not to make predictions like that, especially when it comes to football players. There are so many variables that go into making a great quarterback that we couldn't possibly know at this early stage (you included).

I didn't think Cam Newton was going to be a very good NFL quarterback, for whatever reason. Thinking back, I think I was worried about his release or accuracy issues... I don't quite remember.

But, I do remember the first time I saw him throw a pass in the NFL. I had picked him up late in my FF league and was just curious how he looked and if the gamble was worth it. I knew the first time I saw him throw the ball in the NFL that I was completely wrong and he was going to be a monster. My opinion did a complete 180 that day and I became his biggest advocate, wishing the Browns had a chance at getting him when, months before, I would have been very concerned about drafting him.

There are other examples that I feel like I ended up being right about. Most notably on this site were my very public concerns with taking Trent Richardson at 4 and my huge concerns about giving away too much to move up and get RG3. I still think I'll end up being "right" about that.


But, that day I watched Cam for the first time in the NFL changed the way I shared my own opinion on these guys. You just never know for sure until you see them play on the NFL level, and then everything you thought you knew can be swept away in a quarter if you're not careful.

In short, I've become a lot more humble with my own ability to project these guys. F#ck, I don't know how good Manziel is going to be. If the Browns take him, I hope all of my concerns are washed away as quickly as they were with Cam. I'm not looking to be "right" on my personal evaluation of these guys... just sharing them and curious for feedback.

I just don't like the comparisons with Vick or Wilson. Vick ran a freaking 4.33 at the combine. He was a freak of nature. I see Manziel as a very unique player and that's the biggest thing that scares me, probably.

It's not just his height or weight that scare me... it's the way he's built. It's one thing to be short relative to the position, like Wilson. But, Wilson has a sturdy build, compact.

Manziel is built more like a miniature version of Aaron Rogers and, considering the way he uses his feet, that scares me... the same way I was really worried about RG3's frame despite his measurables looking fine. I feel like a lot of those fears have proven pretty accurate in RG3's case.

I also worry that his on-the-fly, spontaneity may not work out as well in the NFL as it did in college. I saw a lot of running around and throwing the ball up for grabs at Texas A&M. He won't be able to play that way in the NFL.

I'm not saying he can't adapt, but it's a concern.

But, again... I'm not smug enough to dismiss the possibility that my opinion will do another 180-degree turn, as has happened in the past.

So I don't really see this as me vs. you. I see it as me having a lot of concerns about Manziel and you having less.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 02-22-2014 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bisk
I don't see Mosley dropping to 26 either, to be honest. If the Browns aren't getting him and maybe go QB/WR in the first, they could take a gamble on Borland in the second. He's a bit small and lacks elite coverage skills, but the guy is a house. I believe we could seriously cut into opponents rushing yardage with him aswell (but it's a passing league now, so wouldn't surprise me if he falls into the 3rd where he should be a must have).

That Watkins/Gordon/Cameron possibility does make me salivate, though. My goodness. I'm just a bit anxious the FO is gonna be afraid to not take a QB with all the 'we NEED a franchise QB finally' and just go with one of those higher rated QBs. I'm in the Bortles camp myself, if they pick one and hopefully he's there at 4.
I'm with you on Bortles. Like I said, I feel like he has the highest ceiling in the class and if we're going to gamble on a QB that high, take a homerun swing.

The argument against taking Watkins at 4 seems to be that this WR class is ridiculously deep and, while he may be the best of the best, there will be plenty of other good options in the first three rounds.

Depending on how the combine and the workouts go, it does look like Mosley is going to be gone before 26. Like I said, we have so many picks, I think he might be the kind of player worth trading up for. I'd be far, far more inclined to move up to get him in the middle of the first than trying to move up from 4 like a lot of the people around Cleveland are talking about. That would be very stupid, imo.

If you go Bortles at 4, maybe snatch up Kelvin Benjamin or Odell Beckham at 26? We definitely need a serious upgrade at our WR2 spot to take the heat off Josh.
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:55 PM   #35
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
First, I think it's important for me to clarify that I'm not saying Manziel is going to bust. I learned a long time ago not to make predictions like that, especially when it comes to football players. There are so many variables that go into making a great quarterback that we couldn't possibly know at this early stage (you included).

I didn't think Cam Newton was going to be a very good NFL quarterback, for whatever reason. Thinking back, I think I was worried about his release or accuracy issues... I don't quite remember.

But, I do remember the first time I saw him throw a pass in the NFL. I had picked him up late in my FF league and was just curious how he looked and if the gamble was worth it. I knew the first time I saw him throw the ball in the NFL that I was completely wrong and he was going to be a monster. My opinion did a complete 180 that day and I became his biggest advocate, wishing the Browns had a chance at getting him when, months before, I would have been very concerned about drafting him.

There are other examples that I feel like I ended up being right about. Most notably on this site were my very public concerns with taking Trent Richardson at 4 and my huge concerns about giving away too much to move up and get RG3. I still think I'll end up being "right" about that.


But, that day I watched Cam for the first time in the NFL changed the way I shared my own opinion on these guys. You just never know for sure until you see them play on the NFL level, and then everything you thought you knew can be swept away in a quarter if you're not careful.

In short, I've become a lot more humble with my own ability to project these guys. F#ck, I don't know how good Manziel is going to be. If the Browns take him, I hope all of my concerns are washed away as quickly as they were with Cam. I'm not looking to be "right" on my personal evaluation of these guys... just sharing them and curious for feedback.

I just don't like the comparisons with Vick or Wilson. Vick ran a freaking 4.33 at the combine. He was a freak of nature. I see Manziel as a very unique player and that's the biggest thing that scares me, probably.

It's not just his height or weight that scare me... it's the way he's built. It's one thing to be short relative to the position, like Wilson. But, Wilson has a sturdy build, compact.

Manziel is built more like a miniature version of Aaron Rogers and, considering the way he uses his feet, that scares me... the same way I was really worried about RG3's frame despite his measurables looking fine. I feel like a lot of those fears have proven pretty accurate in RG3's case.

I also worry that his on-the-fly, spontaneity may not work out as well in the NFL as it did in college. I saw a lot of running around and throwing the ball up for grabs at Texas A&M. He won't be able to play that way in the NFL.

I'm not saying he can't adapt, but it's a concern.

But, again... I'm not smug enough to dismiss the possibility that my opinion will do another 180-degree turn, as has happened in the past.

So I don't really see this as me vs. you. I see it as me having a lot of concerns about Manziel and you having less.


No one can really predict the future of any of these players... I just have a deep gut feeling about Manziel, he has a gift that absolutely can't be taught our coached IMO. The only way I can Invision Manziel being a poor player is of he battles injury his whole career which could be the case (similar to Vick)
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:56 PM   #36
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-


No one can really predict the future of any of these players... I just have a deep gut feeling about Manziel, he has a gift that absolutely can't be taught our coached IMO. The only way I can Invision Manziel being a poor player is of he battles injury his whole career which could be the case (similar to Vick)

I agree with you 100%. I hate to tell people to pick a player up based on an "it" factor but considering all the intangibles you want your QB to have (along with the tangibles of course) he strikes me as a guy you'd want to have.
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

I hope the Fins draft Zach Martin in the first round. We have to rebuild the whole line.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:59 AM   #38
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I favor this plan over going QB first, personally.

My personal wishlist for the first round is Sammy Watkins at 4 and then coming back and grabbing CJ Mosley at 26. I'd maybe even consider trading up to get Mosley if they don't think he'll fall to 26. I like that kid a lot and we desperately need an upgrade at ILB.

Grab the best QB available in either the second or third round. Mettenberger would be fine with me.

A Josh Gordon / Sammy Watkins / Jordan Cameron trio would cause a lot of problems.

Yea I'd be really surprised if he fell as low as 26 definitely going to have to trade up to get him.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Excited to see Kelvin Benjamin today. He's been linked to Philly in numerous mocks. We have other needs such as an outside pass rusher and secondary but if they believe Kelvin is better at our pick than others on the board at the time I believe you take the best player. Don't reach.

Kelvin and DeSean on the outside with Maclin (if he's re-signed) in the slot would be exciting. Add in Zach Ertz/Celek/McCoy and only Denver and Green Bay would be better weapon-wise.

The next couple days with the OLB/DE's and secondary guys will be fun too. I'll make sure to DVR those. I love draft time, so many possibilities.

Last edited by StateProperty : 02-23-2014 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:18 AM   #40
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Manziel ran 4.56

Not bad...
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:32 AM   #41
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateProperty
Excited to see Kelvin Benjamin today. He's been linked to Philly in numerous mocks. We have other needs such as an outside pass rusher and secondary but if they believe Kelvin is better at our pick than others on the board at the time I believe you take the best player. Don't reach.

Kelvin and DeSean on the outside with Maclin (if he's re-signed) in the slot would be exciting. Add in Zach Ertz/Celek/McCoy and only Denver and Green Bay would be better weapon-wise.

The next couple days with the OLB/DE's and secondary guys will be fun too. I'll make sure to DVR those. I love draft time, so many possibilities.

I want Mike Evans!
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:44 AM   #42
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I want Mike Evans!
A lot have us taking Calvin Pryor. I'd take the fines and 15 yard penalties. We need a guy that brings fear, we have none. Give me physicality.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:06 PM   #43
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Evans 4.47

Quote:
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A lot have us taking Calvin Pryor. I'd take the fines and 15 yard penalties. We need a guy that brings fear, we have none. Give me physicality.

Big hitter!
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

This WR coach is killing these dudes. Comedy!

"I apologize we will get it right"

"Some of yall dont have degrees but I know you can count to 5. Come on now"

"Eh (talkin to QB side) I apologize, maybe we will be up to 12am working on counting to 5."


Couple WRs were cutting it short in the drills. Screwing up the timing


I like LSU Odell Beckham too!
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:29 PM   #45
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Default Re: 2014 NFL Draft Thread

Watkins a nice 4.34
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