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Old 03-08-2007, 03:20 AM   #16
TMac&Luther
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
your link only supports my point.

The US has had almost 40,000 troops in South Korea for the last 30 years.

They are actually moving the bulk of their forces away from the border to the central city of Pyongtaek where their air force is centered...hmm, why move a border war away from the North Korean border and increase air support?

there are also nearly 60,000 troops in Japan and they have also been there for a very long time.

These numbers have remained stable since the Iraq war and arent going anywhere.

They are there mainly because of China and if Nk becomes stable it takes away the excuse of keeping them there because NK is the supposed main reason they are there.

the real reason they are there is to exert influence over the region (keeping China from doing so), and that region has only become more important so they will be there for a long time.

believe what you want little boy, but the facts are facts and North Kroea is merely a pawn in a great game of geopolitical influence.

and by the way I know very well what I am talking about

First off, I'm not a little boy, I served and know people over there and know what the hell is going on and my link doesn't support your argument. You said we keep troops over there to be a deterrent to China's military growth. If you call China, increasing their military budget enormously year after year, building up their military with high tech weponary a "deterrent to China's military growth", your delusional.

You really think those troops have China shaking in their boots, hell no. China has 3 million troops and could probably almost double that in a pinch if they wanted to, (they're a communist country). The only thing thats stopping China from doing something is the fact that both these countries are in bed together (business wise) and they also know it would be a hellacious blood bath that would rock both countries to the core. Basically the same reason why Russia and USA never went at it back in the day.


US not taking out N. Korea has absolutely nothing to do with keeping a couple of troops here or there in that area of the world, we have troops stationed ALL OVER THE WORLD.

The reason why we aren't taking out N. Kerea is because, we don't want to piss off China, (China has been the detterant to us over there, not the other way around) it would be a international nightmare, we don't have international support and we won't get it either.

Last edited by TMac&Luther : 03-08-2007 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:33 AM   #17
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Bush should be eliminated from the presidency before we eliminate Kim Jong. This redneck cowboy has already caused us enough problems as it is. I havent seen him solve many problems during this 6 years as president...all I've seen him do is stir up sh!t in that hornets-nest know as the Middle East.
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
First off, I'm not a little boy, I served and know people over there and know what the hell is going on and my link doesn't support your argument. You said we keep troops over there to be a deterrent to China's military growth. If you call China, increasing their military budget enormously year after year, building up their military with high tech weponary a "deterrent to China's military growth", your delusional.

You really think those troops have China shaking in their boots, hell no. China has 3 million troops and could probably almost double that in a pinch if they wanted to, (they're a communist country). The only thing thats stopping China from doing something is the fact that both these countries are in bed together (business wise) and they also know it would be a hellacious blood bath that would rock both countries to the core. Basically the same reason why Russia and USA never went at it back in the day.


US not taking out N. Korea has absolutely nothing to do with keeping a couple of troops here or there in that area of the world, we have troops stationed ALL OVER THE WORLD.

The reason why we aren't taking out N. Kerea is because, we don't want to piss off China, (China has been the detterant to us over there, not the other way around) it would be a international nightmare, we don't have international support and we won't get it either.

If you've served than you should be aware of the ongoing presence of the US in Northeast Asia.

Maintaining troops in SK, Japan, Guam (and Philippins and Taiwan before that) is to exert influence on the region.

Japan and South Korea would be under a lot more pressure without a US presence and China would have great sway over disputed areas like the Spratlay Islands. Part of the reason the US stays their is the Taiwan Relations Act where the USA is bound by treaty to protect Taiwan from an attack from China.

Maintaining troop levels strictly because of China, would be a threat to China and increase hostilities.

having North Korea behave the way it does forces Sk and Japan to continue to invest heavily in their forces (benifiting US influence in the region) and gives the US a convenient excuse to maintain troop levels that would look much more suspect if only stacked against a 'non-hostile' Chinese army.

Kim Jong Il is very necessary and useful to American influence in North East Asia
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSub
Bush should be eliminated from the presidency before we eliminate Kim Jong. This redneck cowboy has already caused us enough problems as it is. I havent seen him solve many problems during this 6 years as president...all I've seen him do is stir up sh!t in that hornets-nest know as the Middle East.



typical liberal spiel.



I also agree Bush has caused more problems than he sought out to fix, but you wrote everything a loony left wing would say, by demonizing the West, and making the Middle East seem like a peaceful place where everyone was suddenly wronged and violated by the united states presence there. :rollingeyes:


yes Bush is bad, but what is even worse is for liberals to speak so blindly and biased when they always complain about Fox News being biased.




for the record, I am anti-war, anti-Bush Administration, and anti-liberal.
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:51 PM   #20
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
typical liberal spiel.



I also agree Bush has caused more problems than he sought out to fix, but you wrote everything a loony left wing would say, by demonizing the West, and making the Middle East seem like a peaceful place where everyone was suddenly wronged and violated by the united states presence there. :rollingeyes:


yes Bush is bad, but what is even worse is for liberals to speak so blindly and biased when they always complain about Fox News being biased.




for the record, I am anti-war, anti-Bush Administration, and anti-liberal.
there you go, placing your views of liberals into a context that has little to do with it. He never said the Middle East was a paradise (read the quote again, says bush stirred up [not created] a hornets nest). Nowhere does he demonize the West. Perhaps you are conflating arguments? None of your points reflect anything in the post you qouted, its just you doing your generalized liberal bashing

To be fair, if you dont think the West (spef. Britain) had a huge influence on the current state of the middle east you are fooling yourself. Read any history of the middle east.

for the record, I am anti-porsche and anti-new jersey.

You do realize that liberalism is the foundation of our great democracy? How about you take positions based upon actual policies, rather than looking at things in a us v. them light.

Last edited by boozehound : 03-08-2007 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
there you go, placing your views of liberals into a context that has little to do with it. He never said the Middle East was a paradise (read the quote again, says bush stirred up [not created] a hornets nest). Nowhere does he demonize the West. Perhaps you are conflating arguments? None of your points reflect anything in the post you qouted, its just you doing your generalized liberal bashing

To be fair, if you dont think the West (spef. Britain) had a huge influence on the current state of the middle east you are fooling yourself. Read any history of the middle east.

for the record, I am anti-porsche and anti-new jersey.

You do realize that liberalism is the foundation of our great democracy? How about you take positions based upon actual policies, rather than looking at things in a us v. them light.



Nationalism and democracy is what made this nation strong.


Liberalism has simply empowered and given a [undeserved] sense of entitlement to those who did not achieve anything significant in life. "Action is better than inaction?" That is what all liberals speak of.


However, Boozehound, since you take the time to actually explain your opinions, I fully respect your liberal views. all too often I see someone say "Republicans are idiots. Bush is damn dumb. Look at how he is driving our nation down a sewer."

......


understand, I am not attackin the core liberal ideals... but the poor conduct of many ordinary citizens who claim to be liberals and simply bitttch and moan about everything without seeking to do anything.







but back to the original post:


I think the US should stay out of North Korea. but if it becomes very clear that they have weapons and intend to use it (on anyone, not just the US) then they must go to the UN and if the rest of the world is too much of a coward to do anything, atl east give the US free rein to do something about it.


but this time, fix the problem, let the established political leaders take over, then get out of there.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
I think the US should stay out of North Korea. but if it becomes very clear that they have weapons and intend to use it (on anyone, not just the US) then they must go to the UN and if the rest of the world is too much of a coward to do anything, atl east give the US free rein to do something about it.

Anyone believes in UN right now is either stupid or innocent. If UN has the power to stop anyone, we won't be in this situation today. The veto grained to UNSC Pernament members prevents ANYTHING important can be done and solved in UN. So, no, the UN won't give America the freedom for doing what America has to do even if they know there is no other way. They would rather way around it. Once again, America will become the bad guy for things other nations don't have the balls to do, and get blamed for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
but this time, fix the problem, let the established political leaders take over, then get out of there.

A established polotical leader? Good luck finding one from all the North Korean. Also, without American military protection/threat, you really think he won't give in to China in about 2 days? China will re-establish another anti-America governemnt before you know it. Then, what's the point of going to war in the first place?
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIR_ball_Jordan
Anyone believes in UN right now is either stupid or innocent. If UN has the power to stop anyone, we won't be in this situation today. The veto grained to UNSC Pernament members prevents ANYTHING important can be done and solved in UN. So, no, the UN won't give America the freedom for doing what America has to do even if they know there is no other way. They would rather way around it. Once again, America will become the bad guy for things other nations don't have the balls to do, and get blamed for it.



A established polotical leader? Good luck finding one from all the North Korean. Also, without American military protection/threat, you really think he won't give in to China in about 2 days? China will re-establish another anti-America governemnt before you know it. Then, what's the point of going to war in the first place?


hey I only mentioned UN because if I said "US should just take the initiative to do something" people would criticize me for that and skirt the real issue. I chose my words carefully in that instance.


and have the South do something about it? use their political leaders perhaps? I hear a lot of North Koreans get shot every year trying to SNEAK into South Korea. I'm sure they would welcome it.
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:40 PM   #24
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
hey I only mentioned UN because if I said "US should just take the initiative to do something" people would criticize me for that and skirt the real issue. I chose my words carefully in that instance.

It's true but sad for what you say. Some people just can't realise the fact UN is just a glorified, militarilized Red Corss now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
and have the South do something about it? use their political leaders perhaps? I hear a lot of North Koreans get shot every year trying to SNEAK into South Korea. I'm sure they would welcome it

First of all, Adding 23 million(that's pretty much same amount of South Korean population) poor/uneducated/America-disliking people into a democracy system? Considering the chaos that's gonna create in S.Korea.. Most regular S.Korean labor (non technicial job) would lose their job is over a night due to the much cheaper N.Korean labor. Just think about what would happens to the next election. U.S would only lose control of the Far East even faster in that case.
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
Nationalism and democracy is what made this nation strong.


Liberalism has simply empowered and given a [undeserved] sense of entitlement to those who did not achieve anything significant in life. "Action is better than inaction?" That is what all liberals speak of.

I wont disagree with the first statement cause its true. My point was that liberalism was the philosophical doctrine of many of the founding fathers and is the underpinning ideals of the constitution. Not necc. how we use the word today.

"Liberalism refers to a broad array of related doctrines, ideologies, philosophical views, and political traditions which hold that individual liberty is the primary political value.[1] Liberalism has its roots in the Western Age of Enlightenment, but the term has taken on different meanings in different time periods.

Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected.[2] In modern society, liberals favor a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed.[3]

Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property.

A broader use of the term liberalism is in the context of liberal democracy (see also constitutionalism). In this sense of the word, it refers to a democracy in which the powers of government are limited and the rights of citizens are legally defined; this applies to nearly all Western democracies, and therefore is not solely associated with liberal parties."
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

I also tend to respect your opinion since you generally explain it. But I do think you are too quick to pull the liberal card (just like the bush card you are talking about).

We shouldve been proactively engaging NKor instead of ****ing around in Iraq. I agree there is a very real threat post by NKor, but I do not have any good ideas on how to resolve it. China is way too powerful in the region and a US lead invasion would not go over well. Ah well, I guess I'll just watch tv instead
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork

understand, I am not attackin the core liberal ideals... but the poor conduct of many ordinary citizens who claim to be liberals and simply bitttch and moan about everything without seeking to do anything.

I think this statement can be made for a large number of the apathetic american public, regardless of party or philosophical affiliation.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Almost EVERY time the US gets an "established political leader" for a country that country goes in the wrong direction.

I cant name countries off the top of my head but i know of korea and afghanistan that has happened.
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSub
Bush should be eliminated from the presidency before we eliminate Kim Jong. This redneck cowboy has already caused us enough problems as it is. I havent seen him solve many problems during this 6 years as president...all I've seen him do is stir up sh!t in that hornets-nest know as the Middle East.

I don't like Busgh but this guy is what is wrong with our country....idiots like you who think that thier own country is Nazi Germany...you're right...Bush is the one stirring everything up...not Bin Laden or Katrina or the Tsunami or Sadamm.....it is all Bush and his mastermind of satanic eveil that caused all the problems in the world....just ONE GUY

please move to France...I don't want you here...
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSub
Bush should be eliminated from the presidency before we eliminate Kim Jong. This redneck cowboy has already caused us enough problems as it is. I havent seen him solve many problems during this 6 years as president...all I've seen him do is stir up sh!t in that hornets-nest know as the Middle East.

I don't like Bush but this guy is what is wrong with our country....idiots like you who think that thier own country is Nazi Germany...you're right...Bush is the one stirring everything up...not Bin Laden or Katrina or the Tsunami or Sadamm.....it is all Bush and his mastermind of satanic eveil that caused all the problems in the world....just ONE GUY

please move to France...I don't want you here...
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:34 AM   #30
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Default Re: Should Kim Jong Il be eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
I don't like Bush but this guy is what is wrong with our country....idiots like you who think that thier own country is Nazi Germany...you're right...Bush is the one stirring everything up...not Bin Laden or Katrina or the Tsunami or Sadamm.....it is all Bush and his mastermind of satanic eveil that caused all the problems in the world....just ONE GUY

please move to France...I don't want you here...

o since one person told him to move to france he should.
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