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Old 01-24-2013, 10:49 PM   #31
Micku
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

They were different, so I don't know who is better. And I need to watch more games by them.

Magic used to yell at his teammates like Jordan. But Magic controlled the offense more and find guys when they are open. He could, if called for, score points. He could play off the ball and get into get position to post, which he would destroy ppl in his prime because of the mismatch.

Jordan did control the offense, but not as often as Magic. The offense went through Jordan tho. It seemed that he lead more by example by being excellent on both ends of the floor. He could almost everything on offense, being a pg, playing off the ball, post up, and defend.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:18 AM   #32
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

I'm unsure why some people feel the need to insert a comment on who was the better player when that wasn't the question being asked. It's like some people can't just answer the question and leave it at that.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:52 AM   #33
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Overall floor leader (including defense, vocal, etc): MJ > Bird > Magic.

Purely offense floor leader: Stockton > Magic > Bird > MJ
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:56 AM   #34
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
MJ Was TERRIFIC a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.

corrected!

With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately!

-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)

-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)

-His intangibles were off the charts too.

Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.

MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:09 AM   #36
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Earvin
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:10 AM   #37
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Magic Johnson by a mile.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:57 AM   #38
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.

Exactly.

Quote:
"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league. He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths. Everybody says Michael was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but a leadership of patting on the back, of support." - Phil Jackson

Quote:
And, above all, Pippen was one of the best practitioners of team defense that the league has ever seen. On many occasions, Phil Jackson would question a player about why he had not adhered to the pre-game script by failing to double a designated scorer or "half" a defensive rotation. The player's response would usually be, "Scottie told me to do something different."

PJ would then shrug, nod and say, "Okay."


On offense, Pippen was an excellent finisher who made up in finesse and speed what he lacked in power. He also was a quick study, who mastered every intricacy of the triangle in record time.

His shot was a tad flat, making him an erratic jump-shooter. And at least once every game, Pippen would take a too-quick, too-long shot that would drive his coaches nuts. That's because he always yearned for more touches.

Also, since MJ was extremely harsh on teammates who made mistakes, it was Pippen whom his teammates sought out to soothe their bruised egos.

To civilians, Pippen was irresponsible, aloof and occasionally semi-antagonistic. But to his peers, he was always accessible and well-liked.--Charlie Rosen

People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the Jordan Rules. Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington?

Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 01-25-2013 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:23 AM   #39
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Exactly.
People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the Jordan Rules. Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington?

Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.

From the Horse's Mouth, His Airness speaks:

"My father was after me all that season to pack it in when it was over. He felt my teammate didn't appreciate what I was doing for them," said Jordan, specifically referring to Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. "I covered their **$!! when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome fourth-quarter deficits all by myself. It bothered my father a lot, just as it bothered me, to hear them bitchin' about not getting enough credit, or not getting enough shots, or squawking about the supposed preferential treatment I was getting from [coach] Phil Jackson 'I said to Horace, 'Why should you worry about what I'm getting now when I'm not worried about what you're going to get later?"

"They had no idea how much pressure and grief I had to put up with off the court while carrying them on the court. I wanted them to find out for themselves how tough it was to be on their own," Jordan underlined. "Scottie found out the hard way what it's like to be under the microscope 24 hours a day. "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great. Sitting at the end of Game 3 against the Knicks was the worst thing he could've done. I don't think he'll ever live that down."


-scottie a team leader is a HOAX:

-begging Krause for trade to seattle for big contract in 1995, 1996, 1997

-Magic, MJ & Bird were never like that. They were too loyal to Lakers, Bulls & celtics respectively.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:27 AM   #40
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Is this even a question?

Magic ofc
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:31 AM   #41
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
corrected!

With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately!

-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)

-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)

-His intangibles were off the charts too.

Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.

MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too.

Geng I Know Your Favorite Player Ever Was Jordan But To Tell Me That Jordan was a Great Creator, Floor General, Team Player and Knew How To Visualize the Court For Team Play Naturally like Bird or Magic? Then You are Kidding Yourself. Its like Saying Barkley Was Not a Lazy Defender...Even I Admit To This.

Jordan Got Better as the Years Progressed But He Was Not in the Level of Magic and Bird in Those Skills. He Never Was. Thankgod Pippen Finally Played and Got the Role He Deserved With Phil Jackson Asking Jordan to Make him the Pointforward and Share the Ball With Him To Create Future Havoc On Court. It Took Jordan More Time Than Bird and Magic to Learn These Skills. Just Watch them Play and Compare the Level of Awareness Magic and Bird Had Was Jus In ANother Level.

Last edited by Round Mound : 01-25-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:09 AM   #42
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

This is a joke right? Magic Johnson. Jordan wasn't even the floor leader on the Bulls, Pippen was. Jordan didn't even become vocal until well into the 90s and what he was vocal about was being an asshole. Pippen was always the vocal leader on defense once the team started becoming dominant and he developed into the offensive floor leader when Jordan retired. There is numerous quotes of former Bulls saying how Pippen was the floor leader of the team.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:49 AM   #43
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Magic, not even close. The Jordan legend has grown to the point where people automatically say he's the best at every facet of the game, including points of the game that were his weakness. That was his biggest criticism for half of his career, he didn't lead guys, he didn't make guys better, he was all stats, ball hog. Magic was simply the best floor general to ever step on a court and the most charismatic leader. Magic was absolutely unique, not only in his playing style, but in his ability to be such a mean, nasty, tough competitor, while also constantly encouraging and pushing the guys on his team to be better. If only Kobe had some of Magic's quality... They were in the same situation, young player coming onto the team of a legendary big man in his relative prime, but where Kobe failed and ended up blowing up his relationship with Shaq, magic, just as alpha a personality as anyone, found a way to thrive with Kareem, all the way till his retirement. Magic was special. Jordan's gift was his unmatched intensity, determination and scoring prowess. magic's was his leadership. He was born with it.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:04 AM   #44
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Phil Jackson in his book said something to the effect of "just because a guy has the ball in his hands all the time doesn't mean that he's a leader; a guy like Jordan or Bird I feel were much better leaders than Magic Johnson." (paraphrased)

I'd say Magic, myself, though the edge is not huge (their styles differed wildly, though), and it doesn't make him the better player imo.

Phil is a great coach but I can't say he ever got the leadership thing down. His triangle creates a void in leadership and it could be argued it created an atmosphere of great ego-centricity. Which is the exact opposite of what a Zen leader teaches. Phil never knew how to balance the Kobe Shaq thing and thought that his Zen teachings would create a natural flow out of it. It was the greatest debacle of leadership and he was one third the equation. When Pippen wanted the leadership role Phil castrated him in favor of a guy that didn't have leadership in him at a critical time in prolonging their season.

Phil was more than likely pacifying Jordan with the quote. The triangle would be a leaderless contraption if he said it any differently. Jordan, a lot of the time wasn't even in the chain of command for fellow players to get instruction - or other things communication wise - I don't know any player that said yeah they went to Jordan in this regard - they all went to Pippen. They couldn't talk to Jordan and when they did he had no trouble pulling out the fear me card. Even told players to not pass to Cartwright, and Cartwright had to threaten him in order to stop the nonsense. Jordan is GOAT but he wasn't top notch in everything and had some major leadership issues. Listen to his HOF speech, it wasn't about his teammates, it was about him and his adversaries. It took a lot of people back.

Magic was approachable, teaching, uniting, accessible, a mentor, guide and leader by example. He was totally intuned to players not being involved and got them involved. He even had an award system if a player got a block, steal, or defensive play. He inspired Kareem to play all out after he was fading for two years. He ran the most team efficient offense ever. He could make players believe in themselves. He made it easy for players. He knew how to reach players where they were at and inspire them to where they should be at. Jordan really lacked in most of these areas and to be blunt and simple - he shouldn't be compared to Magic in this regards.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:06 PM   #45
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Default Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

Good to see the Pippen brigade up in here with their usual revisionist history. "Pippen was the leader" etc. My ass.
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