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Old 03-16-2007, 05:15 PM   #16
mountaingoat
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by nash4eva!gosuns
i agree with this one

me too. we've seen the suns without nash, and it wasn't very memorable. in fact, i think the mavs would be clear favorites. they'd run smoothly without nowitzki. the suns without nash have to change their whole style.

i think the MVP debate is pretty boring to be honest, but i would vote for nash, personally. he elevates that team far above what they would otherwise be. i remember someone arguing that if we're going by how badly a team sucks while a player is out, michael redd may as well be the winner. while it wouldn't make sense to go by how badly a team sucks without their player, i don't think it would be unreasonable to take into account what the gap is between how they do without their player, and how they do with him. remember he dragged them to 50-something wins last year, without amare. take out nash, and put in, oh, stephon marbury? they're the 8th seed and lose to the spurs in the first round.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

The fact that Nash is an MVP two years straight implies that his team is HEAVILY dependent on him playing. They proved last year they can dominate with or without Amare. Without Nash, they're not nearly as dominant. They'll be good and make the playoffs(who can remember the last time Phoenix didn't made the playoffs?), but thay won't dominate and annihilate teams like they have been since Nash came back to the Suns. Nobody else on that team is going to match his production at the point. Barbosa can keep the tempo, but he's not going to get 11 apg.

With Dirk out, Dallas will have to share the ball with the focus of the offense being on their perimeter players. They won't dominate, but they can take a Nash-less Suns team. Without Dirk, you'll see Howard, Jason Terry and Devin Harris and even Stack pick up the slack, especially Terry and Howard. I say this because last year when Miami kept Dirk quiet for certain stretches of games, Terry and Howard stepped and kept Dallas in the series. Who's going to step up in Phoenix with Nash out and keep the playing field level AND keep everybody happy with scoring?

It would be a tough series, but I say Dallas in 6 or 7.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

How can Nash be MVP when he was outplayed by a player on his own team in the Mavs suns game.. that's the funniest part.

The bottom line is that Nash Amare and Marion all make each other better.. Dirk is the only guy making other players better on the Mavs..

Nash shouldn't get MVP simply because the Suns don't have an experienced backup point guard.. using that logic you could say Terry is the Mavs MVP because Harris is completely unreliable and way too inexperienced to play point guard..
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by mountaingoat
me too. we've seen the suns without nash, and it wasn't very memorable. in fact, i think the mavs would be clear favorites. they'd run smoothly without nowitzki. the suns without nash have to change their whole style.

i think the MVP debate is pretty boring to be honest, but i would vote for nash, personally. he elevates that team far above what they would otherwise be. i remember someone arguing that if we're going by how badly a team sucks while a player is out, michael redd may as well be the winner. while it wouldn't make sense to go by how badly a team sucks without their player, i don't think it would be unreasonable to take into account what the gap is between how they do without their player, and how they do with him. remember he dragged them to 50-something wins last year, without amare. take out nash, and put in, oh, stephon marbury? they're the 8th seed and lose to the spurs in the first round.


i don't think they'd even get to the playoffs.

and all that you said is cuz the suns system is based on Nashie's strengths, passing, setting people up, and taking the ball inside. it's in his comfort zone. the mavs are more centered around the whole team thing instead of just one player....and if it is just one player, it's not dirk
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

if you look at the mavs, they all got a bunch of players who pretty much play the same style. dirk just happens to be the best one on the team, but if you remove him from that group, the mavs' style won't really change much. they might not get as much spacing with dirk out, but they still have other components who contribute to the same system, and they will continue to play the same game.

but the suns? they don't have that luxury. they got decent players, but they are so reliant on the point guard position. maybe too much. they are fortunate to have a very efficeint and compatible point guard, but the problem is that they just rely too much on him. he's built in as the foundation, so if he's out, the suns just lose a lot of chemistry and floor direction. perhaps the suns could still do well with another pg, say, a sam cassell or whoever, but they don't really have a backup who could do the job. any team that is so dependent on pg playmaking will suffer if that point guard is out.

bottomline is that without dirk, the mavs can still run the same style, but without nash, the suns would be a pretty different kind of team. it would be much more difficult for the suns to adjust to the loss of nash than the mavs adjusting to the loss of their top scorer, and maybe that's why he won all those mvp's because he *is* that valuable to his team. they can't play without him.

Last edited by DCL : 03-16-2007 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

anyone who thinks the mavs would run "smoothly" without dirk is either a complete idiot, and/or someone who has never watched a mavs game before.
this is a team that without dirk, beat the sonics (whtout rashard lewis, collison, ray allen,swift) by 8 points.

anyone who has ever seen the mavs play knows the entire offense is predicated around the open lanes and space dirk creates and his great passing ability out of the double.

and also, no *****, any team without their starting point guard would have immediate problems. bball 101 here
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
How can Nash be MVP when he was outplayed by a player on his own team in the Mavs suns game.. that's the funniest part.



hard to understand what you're sayin here but if you're saying that amare scored more points, that's a bad way to judge because amare wouldn't have been as productive without nash there.

his productivity is based on the way the pick n roll runs smoothly in any given game. Nash runs the offense. none of the guys would score as much without Nashie there to create the shot
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:30 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
How can Nash be MVP when he was outplayed by a player on his own team in the Mavs suns game.. that's the funniest part.



i get it now, you were probably CRYING when nash scored 10 straight points in 55 seconds to force overtime, and then you were emasculating yourself and creaming your pants when amare reached the 40pt mark ?

nash was "outplayed" by stoudemire ? they both are on the same team, they both have the common goal of winning, i wonder why you forget to point out all those playoffs games when terry "outplayed" dirk, like when he dropped 35 on the heat and kep the mavs in the race.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:31 PM   #24
DCL
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

mavs without dirk still play like the mavs. they got a bunch of clones who basically play the same way... with or without dirk in the lineup. having him there or not does not change their style of play. and they got a number of guys who put up 20 a night, so it's stupid to assume that dirk is the only one who carries anything. only a lost group_ie pretending to be a "mavs fan" would make such poor assumptions.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by DCL
mavs without dirk still play like the mavs. they got a bunch of clones who basically play the same way... with or without dirk in the lineup. having him there or not does not change their style of play. and they got a number of guys who put up 20 a night, so it's stupid to assume that dirk is the only one who carries anything.

wow you're a complete moron.
all the wide open lanes for terry and howard disappear and they are both streaky shooters to begin with. the only guy who can create on his own is stackhouse, and he's unreliable on both ends.
try watching a mavs game
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by jasonterry

and also, no *****, any team without their starting point guard would have immediate problems. bball 101 here

any team without their starting point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward or center would be in problem as long as that player is a superstar and the best player in his team, so why this logic is used excusively against nash ?

spurs suck without duncan, lakers sucked without shaq EVEN when kobe played, are duncan or shaq the point guards in their teams ? no, but they are just as important.

the fact that nash is the best PG and playmaker in the league is what makes it so difficult for the suns to win without him, not just because they "miss their point guard".
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by DreamRockets
any team without their starting point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward or center would be in problem as long as that player is a superstar and the best player in his team, so why this logic is used excusively against nash ?

spurs suck without duncan, lakers sucked without shaq EVEN when kobe played, are duncan or shaq the point guards in their teams ? no, but they are just as important.

the fact that nash is the best PG and playmaker in the league is what makes it so difficult for the suns to win without him, not just because they "miss their point guard".

nah the spurs are just as fine without duncan as dallas is without dirk.
the fact nash is a true pg on a team without any other true pgs makes a huge difference. take andre miller off the sixers and they collapse. obviously without your main ballhandler there will be immediate problems.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonterry
wow you're a complete moron.
all the wide open lanes for terry and howard disappear and they are both streaky shooters to begin with. the only guy who can create on his own is stackhouse, and he's unreliable on both ends.
try watching a mavs game

guess who's there when you idol choker dirk is missing in action.

you're just another lame ass group_ie who pretends to be a mavs fan, but you don't even care about the mavs players. your only concern is ejaculating to dirk and hoping he feeds you his sperm.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:38 PM   #29
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
How can Nash be MVP when he was outplayed by a player on his own team in the Mavs suns game.. that's the funniest part.

You're forgetting one very important thing. Virtually everybody's scoring went up last year with Amare out. That can only happen if your point guard maintains balanced ball distribution. Besides Kidd, how many other point guards in the League can do what Nash does to the level that he does? Deron Williams? Chris Paul? BARBOSA? Don't think so?

Quote:
The bottom line is that Nash Amare and Marion all make each other better.. Dirk is the only guy making other players better on the Mavs..

You kiddin me? You can name two or three other guys who can take up the slack when Dirk is slowed down. Who else can take up the slack if Nash is not getting his passes off?

Quote:
Nash shouldn't get MVP simply because the Suns don't have an experienced backup point guard.. using that logic you could say Terry is the Mavs MVP because Harris is completely unreliable and way too inexperienced to play point guard..

In a way Terry is, next to Dirk he's the most reliable cat in Dallas. And the fact that Suns don't have an experienced back up yet are 50-14 as of today actually proves how valuable Nash is. Hence the term, Most Valuable Player.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who Wins a 7 Game Series Between The Suns And Mavs, Minus Dirk And Nash?

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Originally Posted by jasonterry
nah the spurs are just as fine without duncan as dallas is without dirk.
the fact nash is a true pg on a team without any other true pgs makes a huge difference. obviously without your main ballhandler there will be immediate problems.

barbosa can "handle" the ball, what the suns miss when nash doesnt play is the passing and playmaking, handle the ball and bring it down the court is easy, any player below 6'8 with decent hands can do it, but run the pick and roll, always find the open man and take over when it matters is something only nash can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonterry
take andre miller off the sixers and they collapse

bad example, even with miller the sixers aren't even a .500 team, the suns with nash are 49-11 and 1-4 without him.
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