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Old 07-10-2014, 04:11 PM   #61
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Your expectation that the Israeli government calmly deal with rocket launches and murdered teens goes against human nature. If mexico or canada (not that they would, America has good relations with all of its north american neighbors and most of south america) had done something similar to us, both countries would already be in ruins.
this is a convenient explanation for why regional conflicts go on and on without end as each side retaliates to the latest retaliation of the other side. but it's vague and i don't think it's very convincing. and of course it goes the other way... how could palestinians possibly calmly deal with the bombing of their cafes and farms, the imprisonment of their innocent countrymen, and their land and property confiscated?

"its human nature" is usually a good stopping point for a discussion. that argument is always full of shit no matter who uses it.

the israeli government isn't choosing between an ultimatum of imposing a police state or sending the murderers a dozen roses.

also lol @ good relations with mexico, central america, and south america. the united states may have good relations with elite contingents in those country's which dominate economic and political decision making. but as for the millions of people who lived through and descend from the coups and terrorist wars and invasions of brasil, chile, guatemala, haiti, dominican republic, el salvador, nicaragua, panama; people who continue to subsist in among the most inegalitarian societies in the world; their relations with their benevolent big brother to the north are quite different.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:15 PM   #62
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
Its hard to make peace with people that are trying to kill you. Lukid is in charge in large part because of attacks on israel.


original UN proposal for the 2 states

Those territories are occupied due to:
the 1948 war (arab initiated)
the six day war (israel attacked first after a massive arab military buildup under nasser)
yom kippur war (arab sneak attack on israel)

Israeli territorial expansion is because of these 3 wars.
Look at how small israel was before it was attacked in 1948
forreal. The Jew Hate is strong with many hipsters on this board who refuse to face reality and read history. They blindly believe Palestinian terrorist propaganda because Palestine are the 'noble freedom fighters' whose land was wrongfully stolen from them by the evil Jews.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:48 PM   #63
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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the 1948 war (arab initiated)
1948 was an absurd imposition that was bound to make the region explode. but then the entire world got fked after world war 2 as the remaining dominant european and colonial powers carved up the world. it's just silly to refer to it as a reason modern israelis hate modern arabs. that map is literally insane and was considered as such by people at the time with their heads screwed on straight. that it led to an attack is no great surprise. in the end, masses of people were dead and hundreds of thousands of palestinians were forced from their homeland into foreign refuge.

Quote:
yom kippur war (arab sneak attack on israel)
that's an extremely sketchy way to describe it. israel had been occupying the sinai since 1967. in 1971, the egyptian leadership offered a full peace treaty in exchange for its land back. israel rejected the offer, made no counteroffer, and continued to settle the land with even more violence and brutality than west bank settlements currently produce... merely because there wasn't so much international attention paid to the situation at the time. two years later, egypt and its partners attacked. six years after that, israel and egypt agree to a peace settlement.... virtually the exact peace settlement israel had rejected eight years earlier, only after bloodshed.



and this gets exactly to the point. of course neither side is represented by angels. the plo was corrupt for years and hated by much of the palestinian population. the pa for the past decade has been collaborating to impose harsh restrictions on the people.

but the debate fuelling high level israeli government decision making isn't between peace and security, which is the dilemma everybody is always agonizing over. the debate is between expansion and security.

in 1971, israel chose expansion (in the sinai) over security (peace with neighbouring enemies). and since then, it's been the same story over and over again. israel elects to expand into the west bank, assuming control over all of the most arable land and precious resources, rather than sincerely make peace.



there has been a two state settlement on the table for years now. supported by most of the world's governments (including europe and formally the united states), most of the world's population, and the palestinians. implement the borders dictated by un resolution 242. a few equal land swaps along the way would inevitably be necessary. israel pulls its settlements out of the core of the west bank and eases its sanctions on gaza. a new palestinian nation state is established that would surely be disarmed. it would get control over the major resources of its land. swarm the border with un peacekeepers. offer up any major specific disputes to a neutral arbitrator, NOT the united states of course, NOT the muslim brotherhood of course. move on from there.

that has been a possibility for years now. formally it's actually american foreign policy. of course they never enforce that policy, they continue to pour money into their client state, and the israeli government understands that it has carte blanche to do what it wants.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:51 PM   #64
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by RidonKs


that's an extremely sketchy way to describe it. israel had been occupying the sinai since 1967.
Look at this f*cking hipster, sitting comfy infront of his computer with his little keffiyeh he bought from urban outfitters, never even been to the middle east

Israel wouldn't have been "occupying the sinai" if Egypt hadn't attacked them. Israel later gave back the Sinai just to be nice, despite the fact that Egyptians, even today, absolutely hate Jews and want Israel wiped out.

I am speaking as someone who lived in Egypt and went to school with many Egyptians. Jehudi is the biggest insult they call eachother, and the Yom Kippur war is celebrated as a national holiday and a victory for Egypt


The Palestinians are the ones who constantly reject the two state settlement you bozo. The Palestinians are the ones who constantly reject Israel's offers to share Jerusalem. The Palestinians are the ones who say they will not stop launching rockets at schools until Israel is gone and defeated. The Palestinians are the ones who elected Hamas in to office. Whatever way you look at it, the Palestinians are the ones to blame here, for constantly starting wars and launching attack after attack after attack at Israeli civilians and constantly breaking cease-fire agreements.

Last edited by Nick Young : 07-10-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:54 PM   #65
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
1948 was an absurd imposition that was bound to make the region explode. but then the entire world got fked after world war 2 as the remaining dominant european and colonial powers carved up the world. it's just silly to refer to it as a reason modern israelis hate modern arabs. that map is literally insane and was considered as such by people at the time with their heads screwed on straight. that it led to an attack is no great surprise. in the end, masses of people were dead and hundreds of thousands of palestinians were forced from their homeland into foreign refuge.


that's an extremely sketchy way to describe it. israel had been occupying the sinai since 1967. in 1971, the egyptian leadership offered a full peace treaty in exchange for its land back. israel rejected the offer, made no counteroffer, and continued to settle the land with even more violence and brutality than west bank settlements currently produce... merely because there wasn't so much international attention paid to the situation at the time. two years later, egypt and its partners attacked. six years after that, israel and egypt agree to a peace settlement.... virtually the exact peace settlement israel had rejected eight years earlier, only after bloodshed.



and this gets exactly to the point. of course neither side is represented by angels. the plo was corrupt for years and hated by much of the palestinian population. the pa for the past decade has been collaborating to impose harsh restrictions on the people.

but the debate fuelling high level israeli government decision making isn't between peace and security, which is the dilemma everybody is always agonizing over. the debate is between expansion and security.

in 1971, israel chose expansion (in the sinai) over security (peace with neighbouring enemies). and since then, it's been the same story over and over again. israel elects to expand into the west bank, assuming control over all of the most arable land and precious resources, rather than sincerely make peace.



there has been a two state settlement on the table for years now. supported by most of the world's governments (including europe and formally the united states), most of the world's population, and the palestinians. implement the borders dictated by un resolution 242. a few equal land swaps along the way would inevitably be necessary. israel pulls its settlements out of the core of the west bank and eases its sanctions on gaza. a new palestinian nation state is established that would surely be disarmed. it would get control over the major resources of its land. swarm the border with un peacekeepers. offer up any major specific disputes to a neutral arbitrator, NOT the united states of course, NOT the muslim brotherhood of course. move on from there.

that has been a possibility for years now. formally it's actually american foreign policy. of course they never enforce that policy, they continue to pour money into their client state, and the israeli government understands that it has carte blanche to do what it wants.
That would have been nice, the palestinians should have made peace with Peres and Barak, Instead they gave political victories to Netanyahu
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:00 PM   #66
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Israel wouldn't have been "occupying the sinai" if Egypt hadn't attacked them
official fighting in 1967 began with an israeli pre-emptive strike numbnuts

Quote:
That would have been nice, the palestinians should have made peace with Peres and Barak, Instead they gave political victories to Netanyahu
perhaps they would have if what i described had of actually been proposed


and i have been to the middle east
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
this is a convenient explanation for why regional conflicts go on and on without end as each side retaliates to the latest retaliation of the other side. but it's vague and i don't think it's very convincing. and of course it goes the other way... how could palestinians possibly calmly deal with the bombing of their cafes and farms, the imprisonment of their innocent countrymen, and their land and property confiscated?

"its human nature" is usually a good stopping point for a discussion. that argument is always full of shit no matter who uses it.

the israeli government isn't choosing between an ultimatum of imposing a police state or sending the murderers a dozen roses.

also lol @ good relations with mexico, central america, and south america. the united states may have good relations with elite contingents in those country's which dominate economic and political decision making. but as for the millions of people who lived through and descend from the coups and terrorist wars and invasions of brasil, chile, guatemala, haiti, dominican republic, el salvador, nicaragua, panama; people who continue to subsist in among the most inegalitarian societies in the world; their relations with their benevolent big brother to the north are quite different.
agreed, so why do you put the sole responsibility of turning the other cheek on israel. they are both to blame.

What I was referring to. The US has good relations with relevant parties of most of its neighboring countries.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:09 PM   #68
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
official fighting in 1967 began with an israeli pre-emptive strike numbnuts


perhaps they would have if what i described had of actually been proposed


and i have been to the middle east


What a sell out jew you are just kidding, hoping u take the bait
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:37 PM   #69
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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agreed, so why do you put the sole responsibility of turning the other cheek on israel. they are both to blame.
because of the current status of the conflict and the people involved in it; a status that hasn't much changed in 2-3 decades. the palestinian population is completely decimated. its economy is in tatters. its politics are rife with corruption. and the average middle aged individual there has probably lost half his family. that's just the nature of the conflict; casualties have come overwhelmingly from the palestinian side. not surprisingly given the distribution of power.

that isn't to say it makes it okay for palestinians to harbour hatred and resort to terrorism. it's only to say that a reasonable deal on the table would almost certainly be accepted point blank at this point. even the right of return would be moot (not that it wasn't already). they have ever reason to take anything that makes even a little bit of sense. it so happened that oslo and camp david didn't make much sense at all. both negotiations ended with outrageous deals from a palestinian standpoint.

on the other hand, israel has every interest NOT to make peace. as it stands, it's is still in the good graces of the only country that matters to it and provides it with tremendous support unlike any other relationship in the world. it's breaking international law building settlements in the west bank but nothing has happened for 20 years so they have no reason to expect any repercussions at this point. it has an awesome military and (illegal, but who cares) nuclear weapons they can use as a deterrent against attack. apart from all that, it's just common sense. the conflict kills/harms only a very small number of israelis which is why staying the same old course isn't extremely unpopular.

most importantly, as the leadership surely understands, there will come a point in time, and perhaps we've already reached it, when the israeli settlers (many of whom are dogged religious fundamentalists) will be so populous and entrenched in the west bank that a two state settlement becomes completely impossible. one of the major israeli issues you hear all the time in the media is fear that a settlement will demographically destroy the jewish character of israel. well you have the same problem on the other side. nobody actually keeps track of how many settlers actually live in the west bank, that would be tmi, but at the very least the makeup is 1/5 israeli, 4/5 palestinian. and the numbers are trending in an obvious direction.

eventually the palestinian claim to the land will mean squat because the settlers will have an equivalent claim to parry with.

all of this is to say; palestinians have a strong sense of urgency, thus are more likely to agree to reasonable terms of peace. israelis have little to no sense of urgency, thus are more likely to hold up peace talks with unreasonable demands. as they've been doing for decades.


Quote:
What I was referring to. The US has good relations with relevant parties (that they installed) of most of its neighboring countries.
fixed it tho
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by Akrazotile
What a sell out jew you are just kidding, hoping u take the bait
lol not sell out, self loath. the key to a real pansy ass do gooder is to hate yourself so much that your lifes ambition becomes to make evrerybode else love you and prove yourself wrong. its even easier with neurotic tendencies and a jewish mother

all i lack is the jewish mother
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:43 PM   #71
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
this is a convenient explanation for why regional conflicts go on and on without end as each side retaliates to the latest retaliation of the other side. but it's vague and i don't think it's very convincing. and of course it goes the other way... how could palestinians possibly calmly deal with the bombing of their cafes and farms, the imprisonment of their innocent countrymen, and their land and property confiscated?
jesus christ you are dense.

If they didnt launch rockets at schools and homes and markets EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR, then Israel would have no reason to come down on them like that. What happens when a retarded kid keeps poking a sleeping bear? Eventually the bear will wake up and it's going to be pissed and probably come down hard on the retarded kid.

The Israelis are there. They aren't just going to magically fly away one day. The Palestinians need to do the rational thing and accept that, instead of do the unjustifiably insane thing of launching rockets at civilians.


If Scotland kept launching rockets at English schools, England would go hard after them. If Vancouver started launching rockets every single day towards Seattle, do you think USA would just allow it to happen? These Urban Outfitter Keffiyeh hipsters seem unable to use their brains. They seemingly have a pathological need to justify rockets launched at Israeli schools.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:29 PM   #72
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
because of the current status of the conflict and the people involved in it; a status that hasn't much changed in 2-3 decades. the palestinian population is completely decimated. its economy is in tatters. its politics are rife with corruption. and the average middle aged individual there has probably lost half his family. that's just the nature of the conflict; casualties have come overwhelmingly from the palestinian side. not surprisingly given the distribution of power.

that isn't to say it makes it okay for palestinians to harbour hatred and resort to terrorism. it's only to say that a reasonable deal on the table would almost certainly be accepted point blank at this point. even the right of return would be moot (not that it wasn't already). they have ever reason to take anything that makes even a little bit of sense. it so happened that oslo and camp david didn't make much sense at all. both negotiations ended with outrageous deals from a palestinian standpoint.

on the other hand, israel has every interest NOT to make peace. as it stands, it's is still in the good graces of the only country that matters to it and provides it with tremendous support unlike any other relationship in the world. it's breaking international law building settlements in the west bank but nothing has happened for 20 years so they have no reason to expect any repercussions at this point. it has an awesome military and (illegal, but who cares) nuclear weapons they can use as a deterrent against attack. apart from all that, it's just common sense. the conflict kills/harms only a very small number of israelis which is why staying the same old course isn't extremely unpopular.

most importantly, as the leadership surely understands, there will come a point in time, and perhaps we've already reached it, when the israeli settlers (many of whom are dogged religious fundamentalists) will be so populous and entrenched in the west bank that a two state settlement becomes completely impossible. one of the major israeli issues you hear all the time in the media is fear that a settlement will demographically destroy the jewish character of israel. well you have the same problem on the other side. nobody actually keeps track of how many settlers actually live in the west bank, that would be tmi, but at the very least the makeup is 1/5 israeli, 4/5 palestinian. and the numbers are trending in an obvious direction.

eventually the palestinian claim to the land will mean squat because the settlers will have an equivalent claim to parry with.

all of this is to say; palestinians have a strong sense of urgency, thus are more likely to agree to reasonable terms of peace. israelis have little to no sense of urgency, thus are more likely to hold up peace talks with unreasonable demands. as they've been doing for decades.



fixed it tho
Quote:
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תָּכְנִית הַהִתְנַתְּקוּת, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005. Four small settlements in the northern West Bank were also evacuated.

The disengagement was proposed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government on June 6, 2004 and enacted in August 2005. Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.[2] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.

Quote:
Failing to gain public support from senior ministers, Sharon agreed that the Likud party would hold a referendum on the plan in advance of a vote by the Israeli Cabinet. The referendum was held on May 2, 2004 and ended with 65% of the voters against the disengagement plan, despite some polls showing approximately 55% of Likud members supporting the plan before the referendum. Commentators and the press described the rejection of the plan as a blow to Sharon. Sharon himself announced that he accepted the Likud referendum results and would take time to consider his steps. He ordered Minister of Defense Shaul Mofaz to create an amended plan which Likud voters could accept.

On June 6, 2004, Sharon's government approved an amended disengagement plan, but with the reservation that the dismantling of each settlement should be voted separately. The plan was approved with a 14-7 majority but only after the National Union ministers and cabinet members Avigdor Liberman and Binyamin Elon were dismissed from the cabinet, and a compromise offer by Likud's cabinet member Tzipi Livni was achieved.

Quote:
As a result of the passing of the plan (in principle), two National Religious Party (NRP) ministers, Effi Eitam and Yitzhak Levi, resigned, leaving the government with a minority in the Knesset. Later, the entire faction quit after their calls to hold a national referendum were ignored.

Sharon's pushing through this plan alienated many of his supporters on the right and garnered him unusual support from the left-wing in Israel. The right believes that Sharon ignored the mandate he had been elected on, and instead adopted the platform of his Labor opponent, Amram Mitzna, who was overwhelmingly defeated when he campaigned on a disengagement plan of far smaller magnitude. At that time, Sharon referred to Gaza communities such as Netzarim as "no different than Tel Aviv", and said that they are of such strategic value that "the fate of Netzarim (a Jewish village in the Gaza area) is the fate of Jerusalem."

Many on both sides remained skeptical of his will to carry out a withdrawal beyond Gaza and the northern West Bank. Sharon had a majority for the plan in the government but not within his own party. This forced him to seek a National Unity government, which was established in January 2005. Opponents of the plan, and some ministers, such as Benjamin Netanyahu and former minister Natan Sharansky, called on Sharon to hold a national referendum to prove that he had a mandate, which he refused to do.

Despite pressure from his own party and country sharon unilaterally disengaged from gaza. The US, EU and UN supported his plan.



IDF moving israeli settlers out of the gaza

After that hamas used gaza to rain rockets on israel. Operation summer rains
Do you really not see why the israeli voting base could be skeptical of hamas? After giving up gaza they were rewarded with rocket attacks.

any reasonable person imo would not have attacked an enemy that withdrew from land that you felt was yours. I would have seen it as a sincere effort to try to make peace. How did hamas react? they started to use gaza to stage attacks. Dont you see how that makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians to make peace? Dont you see how that basically politically castrates peace advocates?

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Old 07-10-2014, 06:43 PM   #73
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
Despite pressure from his own party and country sharon unilaterally disengaged from gaza. The US, EU and UN supported his plan.



IDF moving israeli settlers out of the gaza

After that hamas used gaza to rain rockets on israel. Operation summer rains
Do you really not see why the israeli voting base could be skeptical of hamas? After giving up gaza they were rewarded with rocket attacks.

any reasonable person imo would not have attacked an enemy that withdrew from land that you felt was yours. I would have seen it as a sincere effort to try to make peace. How did hamas react? they started to use gaza to stage attacks. Dont you see how that makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians to make peace? Dont you see how that basically politically castrates peace advocates?
thank you. Still though, the Vice loving keffiyeh hipsters will find away to justify palestinian "Freedom fighting"
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:17 PM   #74
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
bla bla...this is about the illegal occupation of land that belongs to someone else. that's it. everything else stems from that initial fact. and it's worth reading up on the lives of people who are actually enduring that illegal occupation and have been for over 40 years.
Yes agreed. The Arab refugees are illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They need to go back to where they came from.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:20 PM   #75
Marlo_Stanfield
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Default Re: Israel launches airstrike offensive in Gaza, readies ground troops

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool
Always really shady when idiots say "it doesn't matter what the neighbors do, that does not excuse Israel."

What kind of insane dishonest crap is that?

SO it doesn't matter that Israel is surrounded by disaster countries and crazed terrorist organizations that have attacked 89329832893298 times, yet somehow Israel is still expected to act perfect at all times, and if they don't then they are somehow the problem.

Some people have a pathological obsession with demonizing Israel, using standards they don't apply to anyone else.

Syria's killed 150,000 Arabs in the past few years, but if Israel aggressively protects their border with Syria then somehow Israel is the problem. F*ck off with that crap.

Israel has the right to protect themselves. End.
Israel is 90% responsible for all the shit they get.
USA are the other 10%.
Everyone knows this
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