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Old 06-30-2006, 12:04 PM   #16
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"success" by playing .500 ball. Woopdee-freakin-doo!!!!

If they are doing wit with the youngs then that is success ... expect alot of sour vets who will not play if they don't play hard ... And expect happy knick fans if this is a .500 team and the vets don't play
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
Yes, you have to be bad in order to get a top draft pick and the great franchise player. No doubt. But, then every team -asidefrom the Spurs, Mavs, Heat, and maybe Minn., Cle, and LA, - faces the very dilemma that you place for the Knicks. Do we root against our team in the hopes they get that championship great pick in the draft or root for our team as its presently constructed in the hopes they win.

You were talking about breaking it down and getting "young players". Breaking it down and getting young players - Bobcats style - does not work. Clips tried it, Bulls have been doing it with some success for years, Bobcats future doesn't look any brighter, Vancouver did it for years without success.

I am all in favor of losing to get the great championship player, and please raise me a flag the next time one comes along. Otherwise, get me player who will play and a coach who will get a system for them to play in and I'll hope for playoffs and 2nd round.


You have to do whatever it takes to get that franchise player....instead of compounding the problem with big contracts and mediocre players who will take you nowhere....

I'm not saying lose on purpose, I'm just saying don't hamper your team with a bunch of overpaid losers who will take your team nowhere for years to come.....just wait for the right opporutunities...even if it means doing nothing....
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:14 PM   #18
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i agree joey.

and vincedrives... i love watchin the nets, love jkidd, vc, and rj i just cant stop being a knick fan, and i love the bulls if there was a third team in the east then i support nj unless they are playing ny or chi but in the west its g.s.

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Old 06-30-2006, 12:48 PM   #19
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You have to do whatever it takes to get that franchise player....instead of compounding the problem with big contracts and mediocre players who will take you nowhere....

Its two different things - mediocre overpaid losers that get you nowhere, will get you to the lottery where you can draft the great franchise player...maybe. How many drafts have really yielded that "guy". In our current NBA, there is Shaq and Duncan for titles. Want ot throw Dirk, KG, Wade, LeBron and KObe in the mix because they may be able to be THAT guy someday - so if you were the worst team in any of those years, you had a shot at one of these guys. But you needed some imagination for KG, Kobe and Dirk - we've seen a dozen next Dirk's and next KG's just ot be disappointments. For the most part, sucking doesn't guarantee you THAT guy.

You want to see THAT guy be THAT guy, before making a major investment in him. THAT guy is never available as a free agent. The last BIG free agent signing was Nash. Before that it was Shaq under a different set of rules. Otherwise everyone stays home or does a sign and trade. Cap space doesn't matter for a sign and trade.

They were not going to have enough money to sign LeBron, Wade, Bosh anyway because the home team always has more. Until the guy is in his 9th year in the league, under the current rules, the home team has a HUGE advantage.

So to do a sign and trade, you need to have something other teams want...the Knicks have expring contracts, intriguing young players, a future which probably includes good draft picks, and a willingness to spend alot of money. Doesn't compiling all of the above consititute "do[ing] whatever it takes to get that franchise player".

...or we can try sucking for the next 15 years in the hopes that the ball bounces the right way in the right year and we are smart enough to draft the guy who is actually the next Shaq/Duncan.

I think that's real hard on the GM and the fans.

If my team wants to play for 44-48 wins, a good 1st round, a puncher's chance every year -- I'll take that. I'll take a team like the current Grizz.
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
Its two different things - mediocre overpaid losers that get you nowhere, will get you to the lottery where you can draft the great franchise player...maybe. How many drafts have really yielded that "guy". In our current NBA, there is Shaq and Duncan for titles. Want ot throw Dirk, KG, Wade, LeBron and KObe in the mix because they may be able to be THAT guy someday - so if you were the worst team in any of those years, you had a shot at one of these guys. But you needed some imagination for KG, Kobe and Dirk - we've seen a dozen next Dirk's and next KG's just ot be disappointments. For the most part, sucking doesn't guarantee you THAT guy.

You want to see THAT guy be THAT guy, before making a major investment in him. THAT guy is never available as a free agent. The last BIG free agent signing was Nash. Before that it was Shaq under a different set of rules. Otherwise everyone stays home or does a sign and trade. Cap space doesn't matter for a sign and trade.

They were not going to have enough money to sign LeBron, Wade, Bosh anyway because the home team always has more. Until the guy is in his 9th year in the league, under the current rules, the home team has a HUGE advantage.

So to do a sign and trade, you need to have something other teams want...the Knicks have expring contracts, intriguing young players, a future which probably includes good draft picks, and a willingness to spend alot of money. Doesn't compiling all of the above consititute "do[ing] whatever it takes to get that franchise player".

...or we can try sucking for the next 15 years in the hopes that the ball bounces the right way in the right year and we are smart enough to draft the guy who is actually the next Shaq/Duncan.

I think that's real hard on the GM and the fans.

If my team wants to play for 44-48 wins, a good 1st round, a puncher's chance every year -- I'll take that. I'll take a team like the current Grizz.

Your comparing the Grizz to the Knicks? Yikes..

Firstly, Knicks have very few players other teams want. I would say Frye and Lee are the only two players teams are really interested in. And guess how the Knicks got them? In the draft...

Everyone else the Knicks have are just stiffs that other teams dumped on the Knicks...

I mean LOOK AT THESE GUYS. Marbury, Francis, J. Rose, M. Rose, Crawford, Curry, James, Richardson....ugh. LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE. Does anyone want any of these guys? NO!!!

What are the Knicks building towards? What are they trying to do? No plan, no cap space, tremendous payroll, one dimensional players, no winners, overlapping talent, giving away top draft picks, where are they going with this???

The Grizzlies make solid moves and keep heading in the right direction at least. At least Grizz have a franchise player. Knicks are going backwards...

It doesn't matter to me if my team barely makes the playoffs or not. I want my team to be a legitimate contender. In the top eight or so. That's the goal. Knicks will not be there for at least five years at this rate.

Expiring contracts? doesn't work. You rarely get a top player by giving away an expiring contract. You just get another overpaid loser...like Jalen Rose or Steve Francis....

I'm shocked so many people are defending Isiah. As if 40 wins is a "success"...lol...I guess I remember the good old days with Ewing and Co.....when success meant a REAL chance at a championship....

Last edited by bagelred : 06-30-2006 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:58 PM   #21
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i think other teams would take people besides frye and lee..people would love nate, curry, q rich, jamal, mardy and balkman
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:06 PM   #22
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So let me understand:

The Knicks are bad and dumb and poorly managed. That much is clear.

The dilemma is that if Isiah can make this team work then we are stuck with him (making the team work) for a few more years.

Otherwise, if he cannot make the team work, we endure another brutally bad season, just to bring in a new coach and an new GM, who may or may not be able to make the team work.

How is that dilemma. I root for Isiah making it work and hope to build on that.
What the other choice?

Be like the Bobcats, breaking it down and bringing in young players to lose but be young while they are losing, because of all the titles that have been won through building young-losing teams (of which there are none - except maybe the 1st 3-peat Bulls, but they also had the greatest player ever to live).

This whole - "do we lose to get the great franchise player?" debate is a much bigger dillemma for teams like the Celts, Nets, 76ers, T'Wolves, Grizz -- where they have a chance to win, just not a title. Do they trade their assets for draft picks, etc. We had the same thing with Ewing? You could not get equal value, but he wasn't THAT guy. What to do?

For the Knicks, its actually much more clear...no draft choices, may as well root for Isiah to make it work and build from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
It doesn't matter to me if my team barely makes the playoffs or not. I want my team to be a legitimate contender. In the top eight or so. That's the goal. Knicks will not be there for at least five years at this rate.

I'm shocked so many people are defending Isiah. As if 40 wins is a "success"...lol...I guess I remember the good old days with Ewing and Co.....when success meant a REAL chance at a championship....

YEAH - I want skip the tough part too. The part - where we win games and lose games, with good runs and bad runs. I WANT TO FAST FORWARD ALL THE WAY TO TITLE CONTENTION.

Success isn't building, success can only be measured in winning!

Last edited by Joey Zaza : 06-30-2006 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:09 PM   #23
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i think other teams would take people besides frye and lee..people would love nate, curry, q rich, jamal, mardy and balkman

Really? Who? I don't Isiah getting bombarded with offers....lol...Knicks are a joke.

Nate is 5' 7" tall. Not much upside....

Curry has a bad heart, is fat, plays no defense, no clutch play, and has one move around the rim. And gets paid a ton.

QRich has a bad back, big contract, and seems to have regressed as a player. Next.

Jamal? Yes I would say he has some value....I take that back...I could see a team wanting Crawford on their roster. But he's still overpaid, you won't get much for him...

And of course, teams always want the new rookies...but i don't think you'd get much for 'em.

As for Marbury, Francis, James....ugh.....
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:11 PM   #24
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bagel so your telling me..use this for example, if those players i just named went to free agency no one would pick them up? oh plz..they all have value
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
So let me understand:

The Knicks are bad and dumb and poorly managed. That much is clear.

The dilemma is that if Isiah can make this team work then we are stuck with him (making the team work) for a few more years.

Otherwise, if he cannot make the team work, we endure another brutally bad season, just to bring in a new coach and an new GM, who may or may not be able to make the team work.

How is that dilemma. I root for Isiah making it work and hope to build on that.
What the other choice?

Be like the Bobcats, breaking it down and bringing in young players to lose but be young while they are losing, because of all the titles that have been won through building young-losing teams (of which there are none - except maybe the 1st 3-peat Bulls, but they also had the greatest player ever to live).

This whole - "do we lose to get the great franchise player?" debate is a much bigger dillemma for teams like the Celts, Nets, 76ers, T'Wolves, Grizz -- where they have a chance to win, just not a title. Do they trade their assets for draft picks, etc. We had the same thing with Ewing? You could not get equal value, but he wasn't THAT guy. What to do?

For the Knicks, its actually much more clear...no draft choices, may as well root for Isiah to make it work and build from there.

Have fun rooting for Isiah. I won't be....

By the way, Knicks championship odds to win it all are 150-1. Put some money down....
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza


YEAH - I want skip the tough part too. The part - where we win games and lose games, with good runs and bad runs. I WANT TO FAST FORWARD ALL THE WAY TO TITLE CONTENTION.

Success isn't building, success can only be measured in winning!

THAT'S MY POINT. THIS TEAM IS NOT BUILDING ANYTHING.

They don't have the players for a solid foundation of winning. Winning 40 games would be "fools gold" for the Knicks. It will look like they are headed in the right direction, but they won't be....
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:17 PM   #27
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I know we don't keep score and winning an argumnt on a message board is ultimately meaningless and no one - including us- will remembers any of this in about half an hour...

...but for the record...I won this argument. I won it huge....and we are all a little dumber now.
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:17 PM   #28
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bagel so your telling me..use this for example, if those players i just named went to free agency no one would pick them up? oh plz..they all have value

Yes, they would get picked up. At MUCH less money. And on teams that could better use their individual talents. Knicks have a ton of overlapping talent, guys who don't win...guys with selfish games....
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
I know we don't keep score and winning an argumnt on a message board is ultimately meaningless and no one - including us- will remembers any of this in about half an hour...

...but for the record...I won this argument. I won it huge....and we are all a little dumber now.

If you think so...have fun rooting for the Knicks.....

GO KNICKS COMPETITION!!!!!

FIRE ISIAH......clap clap clap clap clap......FIRE ISIAH.....clap clap clap clap clap.....
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Old 06-30-2006, 01:18 PM   #30
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Lose, so that Oden can be a Bull, because there's a good chance I'll be moving to Chicago and I'd like to be in the presence of a dynasty if I can't be in the presence of Arenas.

Or better yet get Oden then trade Tyrus and Gordon for Gil.
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