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Old 03-29-2007, 02:12 AM   #1
Soccer10
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Default Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Let me just say that I respect Knoe's basketball knowledge. He's a knowledgable guy, it's just that he uses that knowledge in the wrong purposes. His sole purpose is to trash one players legacy.
Unfortunetely, the bias gets the best out of him and he's not able to think rationally.
He's like an equivalant of a Laker fan who thinks that Kobe is better than MJ.
He's the most usual suspect here although there are plenty of others.


Anyway, here are some arguments that I wanted to adress.

1. Thank Shaq for the hype, without him, there wouldn't be any of this


I fail to see how this is a reasonable assesment.
Yes, Shaq and Kobe won rings. They were a great duo. Without Shaq, Kobe most likely wouldn't have rings although it's not as impossible as Knoe wants it to believe. I'd say that there was at least a 30% chance that in 8 years Kobe would've been surrounded with a good team that was capable of competing for something. It's a long shot but still.
However, that's not what matters.

My point is that, how can you say that there wouldn't be hype without Shaq?
Yes, he wouldn't be a 3times champion that he is now but don't you think he'd start the hype with some other things?

Here's what I'm getting at..

Last year...81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, 35 ppg per game
This year..65,50,60,50....31 ppg
02/03 - No Shaq...9 games in a row, 40+ points streak
01/02 - No Shaq....56 in 3 quarters against Memphis
00/01 - No Shaq....52 against Memphis

What I'm trying to say is that Kobe was very hype worthy even without Shaq.

If you can notice, most of his high scoring games came when he played without Shaq.

So, what does that tell us?

Oh yeah, it tells us that it's very possible that those high scoring games would've came earlier if Kobe was a number 1 guy from the get go.

From 00/01 season he was capable of leading and scoring 30+ ppg and in a way you can see that he indeed did sacrafise his game for championships.

Who knows, if he always was a number 1 guy, maybe he'd already have like 4-5 70+ points game which isn't unreasonable at all.
Remember that he on more occasions scored more than 50 points in only 3 quarters.

He's just now starting to be in the greatest scorer of all time conversations.
Perhaps without Shaq, he'd already be in those conversations at 25?

So yeah, there definitely would've been hype because even though Kobe's a champion one, the other way around he'd set some unreal scoring records and who knows, maybe he'd even win a thing or two because I suppose that in 8 years they'd get him some help...

So, Shaq or no Shaq, Kobe is great and people would consider him great no matter who he played with.


2. It's kind of a next episode of a number 1 argument.

How much credit does Kobe really get for his 3 rings? Seriously now?

Is any player in the history of the league judged as Kobe is?

Let's face it, from most people he gets absolutley no recognision for his rings.
None whatsoever. No great player gets the same treatmant.

No Pippen, no McHale, no Stockton, no Jerry West, no one..

People act like Kobe only started his career 3 years ago and that's all it counts and that's why you see threads like "Kobe vs first round" when in fact we're talking about a 3 times champion who hit a million of clutch shots in the regular season, in the playoffs and in the finals, a guy who averaged 29-7-6 in the playoffs one year, a guy who was a go to guy in clutch, a guy who had some incredible series...

Yet, nothing matters because Shaq was the finals MVP. It's almost like Robert Horry gets more praise for rings than Kobe.

I kind of understand why it's like that. It's because Kobe is disliked and he wanted to be a first option so people only judge him as a first option but that is very unfair.
You can't just ignore 8 years in a league, 3 rings, many records, great stats etc. It's a fellony..

3. Kobe's FG.

Knoe's main argument against Kobe a few years ago was that without Shaq his FG will suffer and he won't be viewed as a same player.
Well guess, what, Shaq's gone, Kobe's FG % is pretty good, has been good last year, he's been scoring more than ever the last 2 years and he's probably more efficent than ever.
So, that's one of the many arguments that don't hold water.
Shaq definitely helped Kobe but some people actually claimed that one day he's going to be the next Jerry Stackhouse without Shaq.

There's more but this is all I can remember now...

Mathius

Last edited by Soccer10 : 03-29-2007 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Kobe just had a bunch of 50 plus point games, he's a real good scorer, the media and everyone was on his diiick.

But then he pulls a Kobe and comes up really lame (losing at home to the worst team in the league).

This is classic Kobe.

Just when we want to crown him king, he gives us a reason to doubt him.

We can run stats until were blue in the face, it dont matter, because until he reaches success as the leader of a team, there will always be this doubt about him.

The fans of his will love and for good reasons

but

His detractors will doubt him, and for good reason


The Kobe paradigm
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:37 AM   #3
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
Kobe just had a bunch of 50 plus point games, he's a real good scorer, the media and everyone was on his diiick.

But then he pulls a Kobe and comes up really lame (losing at home to the worst team in the league).

This is classic Kobe.

Just when we want to crown him king, he gives us a reason to doubt him.

We can run stats until were blue in the face, it dont matter, because until he reaches success as the leader of a team, there will always be this doubt about him.

The fans of his will love and for good reasons

but

His detractors will doubt him, and for good reason


The Kobe paradigm


That all pretty much has very little to do with my post, sorry.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
That all pretty much has very little to do with my post, sorry.

well then your post is a big huge waste of time then

sorry
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:45 AM   #5
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
well then your post is a big huge waste of time then

sorry



I agree. There are still reasons to doubt him, and JtotheIzzo basically summed up Kobe pretty well.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMiller52
I agree. There are still reasons to doubt him, and JtotheIzzo basically summed up Kobe pretty well.

Doesn't have anything to do with that. Yes, Kobe still needs to be doubted but this post isn't about that.
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Old 03-29-2007, 09:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMiller52
I agree. There are still reasons to doubt him, and JtotheIzzo basically summed up Kobe pretty well.

cheers BMill!

I think it has something to do with the initial post

cutting through all the cross statistcal crap and love or hate

getting down to the root of the problem
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
Let me just say that I respect Knoe's basketball knowledge. He's a knowledgable guy, it's just that he uses that knowledge in the wrong purposes. His sole purpose is to trash one players legacy.
Unfortunetely, the bias gets the best out of him and he's not able to think rationally.
He's like an equivalant of a Laker fan who thinks that Kobe is better than MJ.
He's the most usual suspect here although there are plenty of others.


Anyway, here are some arguments that I wanted to adress.

1. Thank Shaq for the hype, without him, there wouldn't be any of this


I fail to see how this is a reasonable assesment.
Yes, Shaq and Kobe won rings. They were a great duo. Without Shaq, Kobe most likely wouldn't have rings although it's not as impossible as Knoe wants it to believe. I'd say that there was at least a 30% chance that in 8 years Kobe would've been surrounded with a good team that was capable of competing for something. It's a long shot but still.
However, that's not what matters.

My point is that, how can you say that there wouldn't be hype without Shaq?
Yes, he wouldn't be a 3times champion that he is now but don't you think he'd start the hype with some other things?

Here's what I'm getting at..

Last year...81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, 35 ppg per game
This year..65,50,60,50....31 ppg
02/03 - No Shaq...9 games in a row, 40+ points streak
01/02 - No Shaq....56 in 3 quarters against Memphis
00/01 - No Shaq....52 against Memphis

What I'm trying to say is that Kobe was very hype worthy even without Shaq.

If you can notice, most of his high scoring games came when he played without Shaq.

So, what does that tell us?

Oh yeah, it tells us that it's very possible that those high scoring games would've came earlier if Kobe was a number 1 guy from the get go.

From 00/01 season he was capable of leading and scoring 30+ ppg and in a way you can see that he indeed did sacrafise his game for championships.

Who knows, if he always was a number 1 guy, maybe he'd already have like 4-5 70+ points game which isn't unreasonable at all.
Remember that he on more occasions scored more than 50 points in only 3 quarters.

He's just now starting to be in the greatest scorer of all time conversations.
Perhaps without Shaq, he'd already be in those conversations at 25?

So yeah, there definitely would've been hype because even though Kobe's a champion one, the other way around he'd set some unreal scoring records and who knows, maybe he'd even win a thing or two because I suppose that in 8 years they'd get him some help...

So, Shaq or no Shaq, Kobe is great and people would consider him great no matter who he played with.

So what your saying is without shaq kobe would prob. have 0 rings and lead the league in scoring. Along with fga.

Awesome.
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
So what your saying is without shaq kobe would prob. have 0 rings and lead the league in scoring. Along with fga.

Awesome.

dude's a Kobe apologist with a Beckham avatar, he's either 13 or gay.
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
Kobe just had a bunch of 50 plus point games, he's a real good scorer, the media and everyone was on his diiick.

But then he pulls a Kobe and comes up really lame (losing at home to the worst team in the league).

This is classic Kobe.

Just when we want to crown him king, he gives us a reason to doubt him.

We can run stats until were blue in the face, it dont matter, because until he reaches success as the leader of a team, there will always be this doubt about him.

The fans of his will love and for good reasons

but

His detractors will doubt him, and for good reason


The Kobe paradigm

I will ask this again, since nobody seems to be able or willing to answer it.

You and others keep referring to an individual as winning or losing a game or winning a title. I thought basketball was a team sport? If so, is it not the team that wins or loses?

A team is ONLY as good as its COLLECTIVE personnel and how they mesh together within a viable offensive/defensive scheme for the skills that the collective team has.

Can someone explain to me this conitnual "individualistic" thought process in a team game?



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Old 03-29-2007, 11:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

JtotheIzzo > other dudes.
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalMike
I will ask this again, since nobody seems to be able or willing to answer it.

You and others keep referring to an individual as winning or losing a game or winning a title. I thought basketball was a team sport? If so, is it not the team that wins or loses?

A team is ONLY as good as its COLLECTIVE personnel and how they mesh together within a viable offensive/defensive scheme for the skills that the collective team has.

Can someone explain to me this conitnual "individualistic" thought process in a team game?




hey lowcalmike

I love your aloof wisdom as of late around here

the Kobe as a winner by himself (ie without the Deisel) thing is directly related to how history will view him because he decided to run Shaq out of town (yes he did, dont say otherwise cuz everyone knows its true) and break up a team that had some more juice left.

He thought his interests would be better served without people like Shaq and Phil who may take too much of the credit

It was Kobe's time to shine, he was the best player in the L, or so the thinking went

This shows he values the limelight more than winning (or at least he did there)

he ran Shaq out of town because he thought, much like his fans that he was the main reason they won those titles.

but

Since he ran the Deisel out of town he has won nary a playoff series while the big rig is rockin another ring

that is why

until Kobe wins in his new chosen reality, he will have his doubters

what part of this is hard to understand?

with Kobe it is always about him, win or lose, problem is, his detractors are still waiting for that win part.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
So what your saying is without shaq kobe would prob. have 0 rings and lead the league in scoring. Along with fga.

Awesome.


Umm, he wouldn't only lead the league in scoring. He'd have an 81 point game or whatever. He'd have a million of 50+ games. Some 60+ games. Hell, maybe even some 70+ games.

That's not just leading the league in scoring. That's scoring like very few people ever did..

So, would that be hype worthy?

All I'm saying is that we can't look at Kobe's career like he'd be nothing without Shaq or great without Shaq or anything.
We need to look at both sides.
Without Shaq - probably no rings
but also..without Shaq - one of the greatest scorers ever by 25 or 26..very possible.

Just look how much legacy he's made in the last 2 years with his scoring.
That tells you all.

And that was only argument #1. There are also 2 more arguments just as interesting as the argument number 1.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
Umm, he wouldn't only lead the league in scoring. He'd have an 81 point game or whatever. He'd have a million of 50+ games. Some 60+ games. Hell, maybe even some 70+ games.

That's not just leading the league in scoring. That's scoring like very few people ever did..

So, would that be hype worthy?

All I'm saying is that we can't look at Kobe's career like he'd be nothing without Shaq or great without Shaq or anything.
We need to look at both sides.
Without Shaq - probably no rings
but also..without Shaq - one of the greatest scorers ever by 25 or 26..very possible.

Just look how much legacy he's made in the last 2 years with his scoring.
That tells you all.

And that was only argument #1. There are also 2 more arguments just as interesting as the argument number 1.

So you are saying you would rather have kobe scoring 40 a night than a 3peat.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

No. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I'm saying that he'd be this big of a legend regardless of which way his career went.
One way or another, the talent is there, work ethic is there and it's all there so he'd be a legend one way or another.
And who knows, I think in 8 years they'd build some at least decent team around him...but scoring wise, he'd be unreal.

Also, how about my other two points?
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