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Old 03-29-2007, 01:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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Originally Posted by Cannonball
So you are saying you would rather have kobe scoring 40 a night than a 3peat.
no, he's just saying that kobe would get more credit for being a great player if he scored 40 a game than as second banana on a 3 peat team. might be right about that actually. of course that's ignoring the fact that defenses could handcheck up until last year or the year before (i can't even remember anymore) and that jerry west would never have left him so alone that he needed to score that many points and any decent coach would institute a system that spread the ball around at least a little. especially if he shot at his usual percentages in his youth.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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Originally Posted by dejordan
no, he's just saying that kobe would get more credit for being a great player if he scored 40 a game than as second banana on a 3 peat team. might be right about that actually. of course that's ignoring the fact that defenses could handcheck up until last year or the year before (i can't even remember anymore) and that jerry west would never have left him so alone that he needed to score that many points and any decent coach would institute a system that spread the ball around at least a little. especially if he shot at his usual percentages in his youth.

Thank you for actually having the time and patience to read my post and realize what I was trying to say.

Anyway, hand check is nice and all but Kobe averagedd 30 ppg with the old rules.
9 40+ games - old rule
56 in 3 - old rule
51 against GS - old rule

He'd be a scoring machine one way or another.

You bring up one good point though. Earlier in his he wasn't that smart of a shooter.
I realize that he still takes some bad shots but boy, he had some 17-47 nights as a youngster.
Still, the point remains...he'd probably get even more credit than he got for 3Peat.

Because let's face it, a guy who's successful like Dirk and Nash but ringless gets more props for winning than Kobe and one day if none of them wins a ring, Nash and Dirk will be considered winners and Kobe won't..although he'd have 3 more rings than the two of them combined.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

I think that had Kobe come into the league without a Shaq to rely on, he would've grown as a player earlier on, and learned a lot of the lessons he's learning this year. Living up to being a leader like Shaq was are really shoes that no one can fill. Shaq left (or Kobe drove him out - haaters and groopies can debate that one all they want), and Kobe was forced into a leadership role for the first time in his career.

And he DID want that role. He had probably wanted it since he first came into the league. However, just like it would've been has he been thrust into a leadership role to begin his career, he wasn't exactly ready for it. He thought he was, but having played second fiddle and relied on the big fella to lead the team for so long, he just wasn't accustomed to being under that kind of pressure and scrutiny. That basically accounts for the Lakers abysmal first year without Shaq, along with injuries of course.

I'll continue to say that I don't think 2+ years is enough to fully judge Kobe when it comes to leading a team to a winning and long (playoff wise) season. It's been two years folks. Kobe's not all that great of a natural leader anyways, and now he's only had 2 full years to improve in that area. And he's most certainly improved. Maybe not to the extent of the Duncans and the Shaqs, but he's gotten better. And he will continue to improve in that area, and eventually, he'll lead the Lakers further into the playoffs. But honestly, what do you expect in 2 years?

And I've made pretty long posts about how Kobe's three championships (and the years before them) are judged, and how it is completely unfair. LA was involved in a ton of close games over those years, and who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
I think that had Kobe come into the league without a Shaq to rely on, he would've grown as a player earlier on, and learned a lot of the lessons he's learning this year. Living up to being a leader like Shaq was are really shoes that no one can fill. Shaq left (or Kobe drove him out - haaters and groopies can debate that one all they want), and Kobe was forced into a leadership role for the first time in his career.

And he DID want that role. He had probably wanted it since he first came into the league. However, just like it would've been has he been thrust into a leadership role to begin his career, he wasn't exactly ready for it. He thought he was, but having played second fiddle and relied on the big fella to lead the team for so long, he just wasn't accustomed to being under that kind of pressure and scrutiny. That basically accounts for the Lakers abysmal first year without Shaq, along with injuries of course.

I'll continue to say that I don't think 2+ years is enough to fully judge Kobe when it comes to leading a team to a winning and long (playoff wise) season. It's been two years folks. Kobe's not all that great of a natural leader anyways, and now he's only had 2 full years to improve in that area. And he's most certainly improved. Maybe not to the extent of the Duncans and the Shaqs, but he's gotten better. And he will continue to improve in that area, and eventually, he'll lead the Lakers further into the playoffs. But honestly, what do you expect in 2 years?

And I've made pretty long posts about how Kobe's three championships (and the years before them) are judged, and how it is completely unfair. LA was involved in a ton of close games over those years, and who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.
No but when shaq draws 3 guys and tosses it out and they swing it to the weak side and kobe drives it in. It is much eaiser than dribbling the ball down the court going 1v5 and jamming it.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
I think that had Kobe come into the league without a Shaq to rely on, he would've grown as a player earlier on, and learned a lot of the lessons he's learning this year. Living up to being a leader like Shaq was are really shoes that no one can fill. Shaq left (or Kobe drove him out - haaters and groopies can debate that one all they want), and Kobe was forced into a leadership role for the first time in his career.

And he DID want that role. He had probably wanted it since he first came into the league. However, just like it would've been has he been thrust into a leadership role to begin his career, he wasn't exactly ready for it. He thought he was, but having played second fiddle and relied on the big fella to lead the team for so long, he just wasn't accustomed to being under that kind of pressure and scrutiny. That basically accounts for the Lakers abysmal first year without Shaq, along with injuries of course.

I'll continue to say that I don't think 2+ years is enough to fully judge Kobe when it comes to leading a team to a winning and long (playoff wise) season. It's been two years folks. Kobe's not all that great of a natural leader anyways, and now he's only had 2 full years to improve in that area. And he's most certainly improved. Maybe not to the extent of the Duncans and the Shaqs, but he's gotten better. And he will continue to improve in that area, and eventually, he'll lead the Lakers further into the playoffs. But honestly, what do you expect in 2 years?

And I've made pretty long posts about how Kobe's three championships (and the years before them) are judged, and how it is completely unfair. LA was involved in a ton of close games over those years, and who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.
Great post
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
No but when shaq draws 3 guys and tosses it out and they swing it to the weak side and kobe drives it in. It is much eaiser than dribbling the ball down the court going 1v5 and jamming it.
Although somewhat true, that theory's a tad overrated. First of all, Shaq would never draw three guys to kick it out. If there were three guys around him, that would mean he'd be damn close to the bucket and ready for a throw down. And when he was doubled, that led to an open three for Horry, Fisher, Shaw, Fox, and yes, sometimes Kobe, more often then it led to a wide open Kobe drive. Teams would prepare for the Lakers by not only being sure to double Shaq, but by also being sure that when the did rotate, Kobe wouldn't be the guy left open.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
I think that had Kobe come into the league without a Shaq to rely on, he would've grown as a player earlier on, and learned a lot of the lessons he's learning this year. Living up to being a leader like Shaq was are really shoes that no one can fill. Shaq left (or Kobe drove him out - haaters and groopies can debate that one all they want), and Kobe was forced into a leadership role for the first time in his career.

And he DID want that role. He had probably wanted it since he first came into the league. However, just like it would've been has he been thrust into a leadership role to begin his career, he wasn't exactly ready for it. He thought he was, but having played second fiddle and relied on the big fella to lead the team for so long, he just wasn't accustomed to being under that kind of pressure and scrutiny. That basically accounts for the Lakers abysmal first year without Shaq, along with injuries of course.

I'll continue to say that I don't think 2+ years is enough to fully judge Kobe when it comes to leading a team to a winning and long (playoff wise) season. It's been two years folks. Kobe's not all that great of a natural leader anyways, and now he's only had 2 full years to improve in that area. And he's most certainly improved. Maybe not to the extent of the Duncans and the Shaqs, but he's gotten better. And he will continue to improve in that area, and eventually, he'll lead the Lakers further into the playoffs. But honestly, what do you expect in 2 years?

And I've made pretty long posts about how Kobe's three championships (and the years before them) are judged, and how it is completely unfair. LA was involved in a ton of close games over those years, and who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.

that pretty much sums it up nicely. props.
I think the only thing I would expand on, with regard to his leadership skills, is that he led the youngest team (among the youngest?) to the playoffs last year against EVERY pundit's prediction. Yes, they got hammered, but it was impressive that they even got there. THIS year, they are a 6th seed despite tons of injuries and youth. Yes, they will get hammered again, but it is impressive that they made the 6th seed. So I believe Kobe has done a decent job in his first years of leadership. Could Kobe be better? I suppose so.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
I think that had Kobe come into the league without a Shaq to rely on, he would've grown as a player earlier on, and learned a lot of the lessons he's learning this year. Living up to being a leader like Shaq was are really shoes that no one can fill. Shaq left (or Kobe drove him out - haaters and groopies can debate that one all they want), and Kobe was forced into a leadership role for the first time in his career.

And he DID want that role. He had probably wanted it since he first came into the league. However, just like it would've been has he been thrust into a leadership role to begin his career, he wasn't exactly ready for it. He thought he was, but having played second fiddle and relied on the big fella to lead the team for so long, he just wasn't accustomed to being under that kind of pressure and scrutiny. That basically accounts for the Lakers abysmal first year without Shaq, along with injuries of course.

I'll continue to say that I don't think 2+ years is enough to fully judge Kobe when it comes to leading a team to a winning and long (playoff wise) season. It's been two years folks. Kobe's not all that great of a natural leader anyways, and now he's only had 2 full years to improve in that area. And he's most certainly improved. Maybe not to the extent of the Duncans and the Shaqs, but he's gotten better. And he will continue to improve in that area, and eventually, he'll lead the Lakers further into the playoffs. But honestly, what do you expect in 2 years?

And I've made pretty long posts about how Kobe's three championships (and the years before them) are judged, and how it is completely unfair. LA was involved in a ton of close games over those years, and who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.




I have one problem though; you say we don't know if Iverson would have hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if T-Mac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. Why exactly do you believe that if one of those guys had replaced Kobe, they would have ended up in the same scenarios as Kobe did? If they had replaced Kobeb the entire game would have played out differently. The team chemistry would be different. The dynamics of those very games would have been different. Who is to say if Iverson or T-MAc would have even been in that type of situation if they had played with Shaq instead of Kobe. It is silly to assume if Iverson or T-Mac had replaced Kobe, the entire games would have played out exactly the same.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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Why exactly do you believe that if one of those guys had replaced Kobe, they would have ended up in the same scenarios as Kobe did?
That part was essentially in response to a lot of Knoe's post (among others) who constantly says that you could put any elite swingman (Iverson, Pierce, McGrady, Carter, etc) in Kobe's spot over those three years, and they would've done just as well, if not better.

It may very well be true (who's to say) but saying that to take away from what Kobe did is ridiculous.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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Originally Posted by Heilige


I have one problem though; you say we don't know if Iverson would have hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if T-Mac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. Why exactly do you believe that if one of those guys had replaced Kobe, they would have ended up in the same scenarios as Kobe did? If they had replaced Kobeb the entire game would have played out differently. The team chemistry would be different. The dynamics of those very games would have been different. Who is to say if Iverson or T-MAc would have even been in that type of situation if they had played with Shaq instead of Kobe. It is silly to assume if Iverson or T-Mac had replaced Kobe, the entire games would have played out exactly the same.
this is true, it would be a defensive nightmare to be defending shaq at the basket and have iverson coming at you in the paint. you know his man can't keep him out so you're gonig to need to step up and converge on him, but if you do that's either an alleyhoop or an offensive rebound and dunk for shaq all game, not to mention that your entire frontline would be in foul trouble all game. nasty combination. better or worse, there's no way the games play out the same way as with kobe. however ridonks' point stands; we can't dismiss how many times kobe did come through in the situations he was in while teamed up with shaq.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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who's to say whether Iverson would've hit that fadeaway three from the top against Portland, or if Tmac would've come up huge in game 4 of the finals against Indi. You just don't know. However, for Kobe, we DO know. He came up huge in all kinds of games, and yet doesn't get the credit for it because of his teammates? When he beats someone off the dribble and goes in for the score, it's not like Shaq was physically there, picking up Kobe's defender and throwing him out of the way. Kobe gets far too little credit in that sense.

I agreed with most of what you said but this right here....

You dont know if Tmac or Ai were in Kobe's place what would happen.....They may have swept Portland and not even needed to hit a crucial shot the way kobe did..

thats why you cant use those championships to put kobe in front of other players on an individual basis... and Shaq did effect everything down to what happened when kobe beats his man off the dribble...cause if kobe beats his man off the dribble, Shaq'a man aint coming to help....therefore Kobe can cruise to the hoop with the diesel in the middle
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

What about Pippen's championships? McHale's?

They all get far more credit than Kobe.

Hell even John Stockton gets more credit for his rings than Kobe...and he has no rings.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

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thats why you cant use those championships to put kobe in front of other players on an individual basis... and Shaq did effect everything down to what happened when kobe beats his man off the dribble...cause if kobe beats his man off the dribble, Shaq'a man aint coming to help....therefore Kobe can cruise to the hoop with the diesel in the middle

I've heard this, and it makes sense, but we still get a lot of people completely dismissing Kobe's first 8 years as if, like Soccer said, his career only started 2.5 years ago.

The fact is, as dominating and unstoppable as Shaq was, and as good as people like to think he made his teammates, LA was still in a TON of close games during that 3-peat. And who was the guy who came through all of those times? It wasn't Shaq, I'll tell you that much.

It's the equivilent of saying "Stick Kobe in the exact situation Mac was in against the Spurs, and he would've scored 13 in 35 as well" or "If Kobe was on the Sixers and Iverson was on the Lakers in 01, Kobe would've coasted through the East just like AI did, and would've won at least 2 games in the Finals".

These comparisons just don't make sense, because Kobe came up HUGE in a huge amount of situations. Have you ever seen Iverson or Tmac hit a game winner that is even close to the level of difficulty of Kobe's three (actually he had two) against Portland? They might've hit that shot, but there's no proof that they would've even had the ability to.

And I'm not exactly arguing with you, I'm more arguing a lot of Knoe's points that he's made over the past while that I've been here. He keeps bringing them up, and they seemed relevant to this thread, despite the fact that he's not here. So I just decided to bring them up here, as a sign of what Kobe detractors think.
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
That part was essentially in response to a lot of Knoe's post (among others) who constantly says that you could put any elite swingman (Iverson, Pierce, McGrady, Carter, etc) in Kobe's spot over those three years, and they would've done just as well, if not better.

It may very well be true (who's to say) but saying that to take away from what Kobe did is ridiculous.

Well, the fact that DWade was able to win a title with a shaq who was FAR less productive than during the three-peat years certainly gives credence to that theory.

I remember when Bryant fans were saying that Wade would NEVER win with Shaq and that Shaq would NEVER win another title without Kobe.

It certainly isn't unreasonable to suggest that if Wade could win a title with Shaq putting up 12ppg in the FINALS (compared to 30+ppg during the title years, not to mention being more intimidating on defense, rebounding better and just flat out being a better player) that another elite sg type could've won at least a couple of titles with him. MVP year Iverson? Orlando TMac? Neither of them would've stood a chance of doing so?
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: Some of my thoughts on Kobe..just remembered some old arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
These comparisons just don't make sense, because Kobe came up HUGE in a huge amount of situations. Have you ever seen Iverson or Tmac hit a game winner that is even close to the level of difficulty of Kobe's three (actually he had two) against Portland? They might've hit that shot, but there's no proof that they would've even had the ability to.

You need to come off this. So what if Kobe had some big games in the playoffs? No one said he didn't. Kobe fans always come up with this "Well, well Kobe had some big games too!" stuff as if anyone ever suggested he didn't. That's not the point. The point is that during those title runs, Shaq was the heavy lifter, the MVP, the leader, etc. etc. NOT Kobe.

Pippen had big games, Mchale had big games, Worthy had big games, Manu's had big games, etc. etc.

Still didn't make them the leaders/MVPs of their teams. Get it?
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