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Old 01-08-2015, 07:24 PM   #16
Rake2204
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster
I pressed the Steve Nash link, to me his feet are pointing towards the camera.

I know we've had this discussion before and we probably wont agree :) , but at the very least if your feet start out by pointing dead on towards the hoop your feet has to turn in the air away from the the hoop as your body turns with it and your right shoulder pushes towards the hoop along with the ball.

From what I have seen, basically none of the great shooters land with their feet pointing towards the hoop.



I think this pictures illustrates pretty well what I mean as the photographer is clearly along the FT line. If your postulate is that Nash starts out square to the hoop then you can clearly see that he is twisting his body along with his right shoulder and feet which launches the ball towards the hoop.
This way his line of goes elbow - finger - hoop.
Yeah, we've probably covered this, haha.

As far as landing, that's not even a part of the equation when I'm teaching someone to shoot (or working on my own shot). That part shouldn't matter a ton beyond a player jumping straight up and straight down (as opposed to drifting or falling).

The idea behind squaring the feet in the first place is to have a perfect, balanced base and target with the absolute minimal amount of adjustments necessary.

Could there be a slightly crooked foot here or there? Surely. I know my right foot crooks a touch by default due to my wide stance. But the body and the legs are still fully squared.

I wish I could find the clip, but just a few months ago Kenny Smith did a demonstration on NBATV where he claimed there were days growing up where he wouldn't even practice shooting, he'd just throw himself a pass and practice squaring by pointing his feet at the hoop over and over.

I'd venture to say that virtually no shooter (and none of the players I mentioned with video links) is concerned with whether their feet land slightly pointed. All the guys listed care about (regarding their feet) is squaring them to the hoop at the start of the process.

I'd actually say where a person's legs are in mid-air and where they land is more a result of the shooting process as opposed to being a part of the shooting process itself.

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Old 01-08-2015, 08:09 PM   #17
ZenMaster
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
Yeah, we've probably covered this, haha.

As far as landing, that's not even a part of the equation when I'm teaching someone to shoot (or working on my own shot). That part shouldn't matter a ton beyond a player jumping straight up and straight down (as opposed to drifting or falling).

The idea behind squaring the feet in the first place is to have a perfect, balanced base and target with the absolute minimal amount of adjustments necessary.

Could there be a slightly crooked foot here or there? Surely. I know my right foot crooks a touch by default due to my wide stance. But the body and the legs are still fully squared.

I wish I could find the clip, but just a few months ago Kenny Smith did a demonstration on NBATV where he claimed there were days growing up where he wouldn't even practice shooting, he'd just throw himself a pass and practice squaring by pointing his feet at the hoop over and over.

I'd venture to say that virtually no shooter (and none of the players I mentioned with video links) is concerned with whether their feet land slightly pointed. All the guys listed care about (regarding their feet) is squaring them to the hoop at the start of the process.

They don't care about it because they have figured it out, that your body needs to turn a bit in the air. There is a reason all the greats feet turn away from the hoop when they are in the air on a shot, I think it's called body kinetics, in this case it's the most effecient way of launching a ball towards a basketball hoop. The feet needs to turn in order to get elbow - finger - hoop aim, you cannot get that aim if your body is square with your target.
It's common reason that if you are a right handed shooter, then your right shoulder needs to move forward from the original line across the chest to the left one. In order to achieve this you have to turn all of your body including hips and feet, or else it is going to look and feel really weird.

You've seen Steve Nashes feet point away from the basket in the air, here are some more.



http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images...jpg?1313581423


I've also sent you a PM with a link to a movie of a few shots from one of my former players. He came to me 2-3 years ago and said he'd really like to be able to shoot it, he has taken any advice I have given him and we have worked on intensively every summer in that span and also through the seasons. He shoots pretty much how I want a player to do it.
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Old 01-08-2015, 09:24 PM   #18
Rake2204
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Default Re: Help with jumper

As you mentioned previously, I think we're just going to have to conclude what we likely concluded last time - that our philosophies differ and there's numerous ways to break an egg (or become a knockdown shooter). Just as you've experienced success in your teaching strategies (video is private, by the way), as have I.

In my case, that means I prefer pointing the feet at the hoop (or very, very close to being pointed toward the hoop). I feel the slight stagger that occurs (right foot just a touch forward) properly accommodates for the angle needed. Video examples of said technique were included on the previous page.

That said, we may be closer to the same page than we believe. For instance, it sometimes reads as though you're saying players physically try to turn their bodies during their shots. However, I assume you just mean that's something that can sometimes happens naturally as the result of the shooting process. And again, what happens to a player's feet in the air is a different world from where they are upon initial square.

But again, to be totally clear - we just have different philosophies and I'm confident they both can work out just fine. I'm certain there's links supporting both ways we speak of (mine tends to be most similar to Dave Hopla and Clippers assistant Kevin Eastman: http://wordsonthebounce.wordpress.co...great-shooter/ & http://hoopthoughts.blogspot.com/201...shooting.html). 10 toes to the target seems to be the catchphrase.

But either way, always fun to compare notes. It's good to hear different theories and find means to incorporate different aspects.

Edit: Just saw the video you posted of your boy. We are way closer on this than we think. That's squared up enough for me, haha. Good stuff.

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Old 01-09-2015, 12:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Help with jumper

I think Both of you guys are kinda " right" ( Rake and Zen )

Ultimately you want yer dominate hand ( shooting hand ) to follow through straight, and it does help to slightly turn/twist the base because it helps point the shoulder/hand on the follow through.

but exactly how much of a turn?.......everyone's body type is different....

It helps in practice to square yer feet.....because in a game scenario you do not have time to adjust. ( practice perfect)

It comes down to the indivdual IMO....a very slight turn helps out in some cases to help the shooting hand have a straight follow through....the key is to keep the base movement (dip and hop)consistent on every shot.(witch in turn helps the touch of the ball....helps you have muscle memory)

______________________________________________

as far as the OP,

yer shot has some very good habits.....

- need to work on follow through and "touch" ( touch, meaning how to properly gauge distance/how much power you need from every spot on the court)

- Follow through ( dominate hand) needs to be consistent and guiding the ball on a straight path towards the hoop.

- all this has to be remedied by perfect practice, and repetition...alot of repetition.


No one wakes up shooting like Ray Allen ( especially in game scenarios)
Lucky for Ray, His dad was in the Military and had access to BBALL Gym's on every corner....Ray would often wake up at 6am and shoot for 2hrs with his dad before school.....stressing the importance of keeping his base and follow through consistent on every shot!

Last edited by AlphaWolf24 : 01-09-2015 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 06:47 PM   #20
L3B120N J4M35
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Default Re: Help with jumper

hows my jumpshot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFxHLhYFnIQ

imma try and get a new video soon of a more clear look at my jumpshot
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:18 AM   #21
AlphaWolf24
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by L3B120N J4M35
hows my jumpshot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFxHLhYFnIQ

imma try and get a new video soon of a more clear look at my jumpshot


yer shot has a low release/ and little arc. Hard to really explain how to improve on the internet. ( i'll try)

During yer shooting motion .....You need to have the ball come over yer forehead and release high above yer head ( slightly forward.



again....the ball doesn't start there....it starts in the shot pocket ( and the whole body works in rhythm) and travels up straight ( bye the forehead) and releases high over ( slightly in front) over yer head.





hope that made sense.
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Old 01-11-2015, 09:22 PM   #22
L3B120N J4M35
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
yer shot has a low release/ and little arc. Hard to really explain how to improve on the internet. ( i'll try)

During yer shooting motion .....You need to have the ball come over yer forehead and release high above yer head ( slightly forward.



again....the ball doesn't start there....it starts in the shot pocket ( and the whole body works in rhythm) and travels up straight ( bye the forehead) and releases high over ( slightly in front) over yer head.





hope that made sense.


yeah i realized that. i think my shot is pretty on, but sometimes I'm just a lil too inconsistent.
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:37 AM   #23
Legendofthe718
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Default Re: Help with jumper

This is why I'm so confused, some people say square feet, others say turn. Turning my feet does feel more comfortable, I just have a hard time really squaring up especially shooting from an angle, what's the easiest way to square up without having to look down to make sure my feet are actually facing the rim, it feels weird because I check to make sure I'm squared, and then shoot. Doesn't seem to help my shot at all.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:18 PM   #24
Rake2204
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendofthe718
This is why I'm so confused, some people say square feet, others say turn. Turning my feet does feel more comfortable, I just have a hard time really squaring up especially shooting from an angle, what's the easiest way to square up without having to look down to make sure my feet are actually facing the rim, it feels weird because I check to make sure I'm squared, and then shoot. Doesn't seem to help my shot at all.
To some degree, I think you must do what's most comfortable for you. I guess the issue comes when comfort is not yielding results.

I think there's a happy-medium between what Zen and I are saying, and I think Zen and I are close to being on the same track as is - maybe Alpha's advice serves as that middleground ("It comes down to the indivdual IMO....a very slight turn helps out in some cases to help the shooting hand have a straight follow through....the key is to keep the base movement (dip and hop)consistent on every shot.")

You may not need to have both feet pointed exactly at the rim (though I still believe it could aid in providing a solid base for consistency), but I also would not recommend your current stance that leaves your feet pointed directly toward the sideline.

One way or another, it'd seem you might need to get your chest/body just a bit more squared up with your target. As it stands, the alignment of your body at the beginning of your stroke would seem to suggest you're going to be shooting to the direct corner of the gym or even a touch further:



And in truth, if you were shooting to the corner, your follow through might have stayed tighter and more consistent. My current hypothesis is, with your body initially squaring to an area far left of your actual target, you may be subconsciously trying to compensate by trying to bring the ball to the right, resulting in the shooting hand sweeping and ending all cockeyed to the right after the shot's been completed.



Question, what do your free throws look like?

Last edited by Rake2204 : 01-13-2015 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
To some degree, I think you must do what's most comfortable for you. I guess the issue comes when comfort is not yielding results.

I think there's a happy-medium between what Zen and I are saying, and I think Zen and I close to being on the same track as is - maybe Alpha's advice serves as that middleground ("It comes down to the indivdual IMO....a very slight turn helps out in some cases to help the shooting hand have a straight follow through....the key is to keep the base movement (dip and hop)consistent on every shot.")

You may not need to have both feet pointed exactly at the rim (though I still believe it could aid in providing a solid base for consistency), but I also would not recommend your current stance that leaves your feet pointed directly toward the sideline.

One way or another, it'd seem you might need to get your chest/body just a bit more squared up with your target. As it stands, the alignment of your body at the beginning of your stroke would seem to suggest you're going to be shooting to the direct corner of the gym or even a touch further:



And in truth, if you were shooting to the corner, your follow through might have stayed tighter and more consistent. My current hypothesis is, with your body initially squaring to an area far left of your actual target, you may be subconsciously trying to compensate by trying to bring the ball to the right, resulting in the shooting hand sweeping and ending all cockeyed to the right after the shot's been completed.



Question, what do your free throws look like?

Ah ok, I see what you mean. My hand does tend to drift a bit to the side when I shoot, so I need to try to keep it stiffer, and keep my guide hand closer to my shooting hand. I'll practice on trying to square myself up better, I guess turning works for people who are a bit more advanced, and have a much more solid base.

As far as my free throws go, they're actually not bad, I'm a really good with hitting free throws, it seems the problems come into play when shooting jumpshots. I'll try to upload a video, of my free throw shooting. To give you an idea.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: Help with jumper

So how should I square up to the rim, how do I get my body in alignment correctly?
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:03 PM   #27
Rake2204
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendofthe718
So how should I square up to the rim, how do I get my body in alignment correctly?
This may sound overly simplified, but it's still something I do to this day: I'd recommend starting at the front of the rim (literally about a foot away) and doing some form shooting. By this I mean taking your time, getting your feet set & body square, then using just one hand on the ball to shoot and follow through.

One of the videos I shared a few posts ago is actually pretty on point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPOif-Kkx9s#t=0m23s

Form shooting practice may better allow you to diagnose your own shooting issues as well. Using one hand, I imagine it's going to be tough to have that sweeping left-to-right follow through while still experiencing great success.

The form shooting will basically lock you in to doing it right.
-Point your body at the hoop
-Get your elbow in
-Follow straight up and through.

I also support the manner with which he reinstitutes the left hand at some point too. Once the one-handed stroke begins feeling right, bring the left back into the equation and put it all together.

Another angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Oelu4pzHs#t=2m30s

I wasn't sure at first, but I'm beginning to believe Dave Hopla is the guy for which I derived my stroke. We had a prominent "shot doctor" come in each year at the University of Michigan basketball camp in the late 90's and in hindsight, I think this was him. It'd make sense, because it's pretty much exactly what I based my shooting technique off of: http://www.usab.com/youth/news/2012/...iss-shots.aspx
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
This may sound overly simplified, but it's still something I do to this day: I'd recommend starting at the front of the rim (literally about a foot away) and doing some form shooting. By this I mean taking your time, getting your feet set & body square, then using just one hand on the ball to shoot and follow through.

One of the videos I shared a few posts ago is actually pretty on point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPOif-Kkx9s#t=0m23s

Form shooting practice may better allow you to diagnose your own shooting issues as well. Using one hand, I imagine it's going to be tough to have that sweeping left-to-right follow through while still experiencing great success.

The form shooting will basically lock you in to doing it right.
-Point your body at the hoop
-Get your elbow in
-Follow straight up and through.

I also support the manner with which he reinstitutes the left hand at some point too. Once the one-handed stroke begins feeling right, bring the left back into the equation and put it all together.

Another angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Oelu4pzHs#t=2m30s

I wasn't sure at first, but I'm beginning to believe Dave Hopla is the guy for which I derived my stroke. We had a prominent "shot doctor" come in each year at the University of Michigan basketball camp in the late 90's and in hindsight, I think this was him. It'd make sense, because it's pretty much exactly what I based my shooting technique off of: http://www.usab.com/youth/news/2012/...iss-shots.aspx

Ah ok, I'll try that out to see if it will help. The thing that sucks for me was growing up, Only thing I was really into was skating ( skateboarding) I didn't get into basketball until my early 20's, and I pretty much self taught myself. So it's a bit harder for me to grasp a lot of these concepts you bring up. I will try to post another video of me shooting, that shows my whole body in better view, so it's easier to diagnose.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: Help with jumper

what's up bro.

a lot of the posters gave you good some good tips, didn't read through all of them though.

but i'd like to highlight some things for you and give you a summary.

you want to do all of the following:

turn, sweep, and sway.

old school shooting mechanics was to square up, but bio-mechanically this is incorrect.

when you shoot, do not turn your body to face the basket, this is wrong, and it builds up TENSION in your shoulders, which is bad.

the transfer of energy has to be efficient when shooting. square up ONLY your shooting shoulder, hip, and elbow. feet should be turned before the jump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq_EppDGO6Q

watch that video. he's one of the best shooting coaches ever, if not the most advanced and up to date with the most prestige in USA Basketball


also, another HUGE thing i want to point out--- you have a 2 motion shot.

increase your vertical, as the 2 motion jumper relies on---a jump.

i recommend strength training

all the best
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:14 PM   #30
Rake2204
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Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBourne92
what's up bro.

a lot of the posters gave you good some good tips, didn't read through all of them though.

but i'd like to highlight some things for you and give you a summary.

you want to do all of the following:

turn, sweep, and sway.

old school shooting mechanics was to square up, but bio-mechanically this is incorrect.

when you shoot, do not turn your body to face the basket, this is wrong, and it builds up TENSION in your shoulders, which is bad.

the transfer of energy has to be efficient when shooting. square up ONLY your shooting shoulder, hip, and elbow. feet should be turned before the jump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq_EppDGO6Q

watch that video. he's one of the best shooting coaches ever, if not the most advanced and up to date with the most prestige in USA Basketball


also, another HUGE thing i want to point out--- you have a 2 motion shot.

increase your vertical, as the 2 motion jumper relies on---a jump.

i recommend strength training

all the best
Respectfully, I disagree that squaring up is flat out wrong. There's numerous ways to develop an effective shot (Shawn Marion even hit almost 40% from NBA range at one point) and your approach is another way to make it happen, but to reject the potential effectiveness of squaring the body is totally misguided (not to mention that I do not believe it builds tension in the shoulders).

To be honest, a lot of the internet shooting system marketers seem to have brain-washed a lot of folks trying to get their shot right. It's borderline religious zealotry in many cases. After watching the video above (and others by him), not only are the comments full of "Hey! This worked!", but there's also a heavy touch of "This is the only way and everyone else is completely incorrect."

The Sway

Moreover, I believe a lot of the mechanics that some of the greatest shooters of all-time used have been misinterpreted. For instance, the "sweep and sway" thing. Players weren't literally taught to make their feet sway forward while in mid-air, just as they weren't taught to try to make their feet land in a particular way when they came down. Rather, those things tend to be a natural result from other aspects of the shooting process.

Personally, I find consciously working on a mid-air sway to be unproductive and not always conducive to the actual shooting process. To me, one's feet will move ahead regardless if someone is properly balanced. As long as I followed my mechanics (square, balance, elbow, follow-through, for starters), I don't have much regard for whether I'm swaying or not. If squaring, loading, and firing shooting my shot right makes my feet look funny while in mid-air, I don't think I'd have any idea.

Feelings on Internet Snake Oil Salesmen

I don't know, a lot of those online systems (in particular the proshooting thing) feels like someone trying to make a sale by creating a different way to say the same thing while retroactively trying to suggest that everyone's making a point to follow his advice. I feel as though he could take a video of me shooting and say "Now here's a guy who understands sweep & sway" when it reality working on that aspect played no role in my shooting development.

I feel it's like me making up the "Not Quite Nose" technique where shooters bring the ball back but not quite far enough to hit their nose, then me retroactively going back in history and saying "See, look at everyone following my well-established technique, because it works. This is the new strategy to shooting. They may say they're not following my technique, but that's because they're in the fog and can't see for themselves." I'm glad it works for some, but there's more going on there than simply trying to improve people's shots.

One of those videos discussed how B.E.E.F. didn't work because it was incomplete. I agree. People couldn't just say "B.E.E.F." and expect no other interpretation would be needed. I think the same could be said about whatever other systems are created though (I think that one was F.O.R.E.S.T.). Seems to be a classic case of "They're wrong, let me show you the right way while blanketing it over players who did not use my strategies. Now you pay for my new manifesto."

Many Ways to Break an Egg, Including Squaring Up

Again, purposely severely pointing one's feet from the hoop is fine if that's what works, but squaring one's body is not wrong (says Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Steve Kerr, Tim Legler, Kenny Smith, Mark Price and thousands of others). Slight crooks in the feet will happen (just a hair over from perfect foot-point is common and normal when squaring, in fact) but this is far divorced from willfully trying to point the legs in the wrong direction.

I've shot squared to the hoop for the vast majority of my life and it has served me well. On each shot, my goal was to point my feet at the bucket. At some point, I realized my right foot sometimes tilted inward a touch due to my wide stance, but I maintain my square.

As Mark Price says, "the feet are the compass of the body", so when looking for a simple means of forming consistency, squaring the feet will mean squaring the body, which will mean a correctly-elbowed shot will always go straight, no other real adjustments needed from an aiming standpoint. Square and fire.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 02-04-2015 at 04:35 PM.
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